Author Topic: Tony's contract / Danny's negotiating style  (Read 2094 times)

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Tony's contract / Danny's negotiating style
« on: November 14, 2010, 10:02:17 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Yesterday, Doc had some interesting words on the Tony Allen negotiations:

Quote
“Our relationship was phenomenal, and he loved our players. Just sometimes you get into these contract negotiations and they become personal, and, you know, it happens. . . .  “Money-wise, I thought it would have ended up better with us at the end of the day. But not at the beginning - and that’s what started the whole divide,” Rivers said.

Link

To me, this quote suggests that Danny started negotiations with Tony pretty low, which led to some hurt feelings.  In Doc's words, the money from the Celtics may have actually ended up being more than the Grizzlies', but by that time Tony was miffed and decided to move on.  (i.e., the lack of a bigger offer "at the beginning ... started the whole divide.)

We saw something very similar play out with Leon Powe, who also had his pride wounded when the Celtics didn't immediately offer a guaranteed contract (even though they eventually offered the same deal Cleveland did).  Much in the same vein, BBD's contract negotiations were pretty contentious and he apparently felt disrespected, although he ended up staying in Boston.  Lastly, Danny reportedly low-balled Posey at the beginning of contract talks (offering only a two-year deal for a portion of the MLE). 

Obviously, in the case of Tony and Powe, the negotiating style didn't work, and it led to a breakdown in contract talks.  At the same time, Danny has signed several of our players to very reasonable deals, including Perk and Rondo, and even KG, Pierce, and Ray. 

On balance, I'd say that Danny's method of negotiating is much more of a plus than a minus.  I think he learned a lesson when he gave overly generous contracts to Scal and Blount, and has decided that he'd rather see marginal talent walk away rather than be an overpaid anchor on the roster.  I respect that view, even though I would have preferred to keep Powe and Tony.


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Re: Tony's contract / Danny's negotiating style
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2010, 10:06:23 AM »

Offline RJ87

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Obviously, in the case of Tony and Powe, the negotiating style didn't work, and it led to a breakdown in contract talks.  At the same time, Danny has signed several of our players to very reasonable deals, including Perk and Rondo, and even KG, Pierce, and Ray. 

So, he was more amenable with our starters than our bench guys is essentially what it looks like. I don't know who I feel about this, glad he's keeping the core guys locked up. But you can't win a championship without a bench. Makes me a little worried for this offseason with BBD and Delonte being FA's...

Hmm, maybe I'm just reading to for into it.
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Re: Tony's contract / Danny's negotiating style
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2010, 10:55:19 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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I have no idea what strategy works, nor do I know if anything leaked post-negotiation has any validity.

For instance, it's really easy to come out and say "we don't know why Tony left, our offer was just as good" but I personally have no idea. Now, if it was about attempted playing time, then it makes sense. But Doc makes it seems like it was about money.

Now, I could easily see the C's starting with a below market offer. That just makes sense. But i don't know if the initial offer was made in a "this is our best offer, nothing higher is possible" way, but they were secretly ready to match the Griz offer? Or if it was a "here's a deal you can sign right now, but tell us if you get a better offer so we can still work something out" kind of thing, I don't know...and i don't even know which works better.

However, we do know that something in the negotiations of Powe and TA upset each of them enough to apparently sign for the same money elsewhere. I could see it as one of three things:

1. Player: Yeah, it's the same money, but you guys should show me home-town respect. So even though it's the same, both are low-ball offers, so i'm going to switch teams simply because you disrespected me and should have valued me more.

2. Team: Oh, we have no idea why he left. We offered him the same amount of money, i guess they just wanted to move on (spinning it to appease fans who developed emotional attachments)

3a. Team: you are terrible you are only worth this much good luck finding a better offer.
Player: okay then I'm going to this other team for X amount.
Team: oh, okay, we'll give you that!
Player: No Way.
3b. Team: here is the most we can afford. Tough luck, there is no way we can go higher; we will not budge.
Player: Okay, i have a better offer with X. Goodbye
Team: Hey! We were bluffing! We had a better offer for you!

If pressed, I would guess it's mostly #1, possibly with a little of the others thrown in.


Regardless, I have to give Ainge the benefit of the doubt so far. The Posey deal was Awful Awful. He's been terrible and it's quite high money. Powe was a talented player, but he'd already had his injury when he became a free agent, so the negotiations were based on ability to come back and stay on the court, not actual talent. TA is mercurial at best, so I do legitimately wonder if the team was surprised that he just chose a new city for the same contract just because it's Tony. Clearly the Davis deal was handled right; he hit the RFA market, no one bit, and Ainge didn't bid against himself so they found a mutual contract that would work.


It's the mid-level contracts for bench players that kills teams; Ainge seems to know this and avoid them...with some luck. The Sheed contract could have been such a deal, but he voided 2 years of it. We'll see, but if Perk extends for more than 7 million per year and Davis for more than an average of 5  per year, they'll become those clogging contracts, I bet. We'll see what happens there.

Re: Tony's contract / Danny's negotiating style
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2010, 11:00:45 AM »

Offline More Banners

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My best guess at what Doc was referring to is that the C's were offering less money and one less year guaranteed, period, but "at the end" there would have likely been deep playoff money and a strong chance that they'd give him another contract in 2012.

That's my guess, that the C's offered the possiblity of more money (in playoff shares and pay plus the next contract), but those things are not guaranteed.  And Tony (smartly) took the guaranteed money/years.

Re: Tony's contract / Danny's negotiating style
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2010, 11:01:53 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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I like his style...

It says, if you really like the organization, and truly want to play here, you'll take the offer we give you and play basketball. If you don't, well then you dont really want to be here so try your luck elsewhere.

Re: Tony's contract / Danny's negotiating style
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2010, 12:36:48 PM »

Offline mgent

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I don't know enough about Danny's negotiating (I don't think anyone does so I can imagine where this thread is gonna go) so I can't say anything about the way he goes about it.  But I do think he's gotta pick up the pace and let the guys we really want them once the business side is settled, otherwise we'll continue to lose out on guys that we could have gotten (Tony, Leon, maybe Posey).  I think it was Mike last night that said one of the reasons Tony went to Memphis is because he just felt more wanted there.

The stuff with Leon especially was just stupid.  If i remember it correctly Danny offered the same contract after Leon had already accepted the offer from Cleveland and didn't want to go back on his word.  That is just unacceptable, especially for a minimum contract!  Of course Leon and Tony are pretty stupid too for not being more patient before making a decision, but Danny has got to keep that in mind with us being the previous team and be quicker.
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Re: Tony's contract / Danny's negotiating style
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2010, 12:42:09 PM »

Offline Jon

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I think he also saw Powe and Tony as completely expendable, and he's right.  When this team is fully healthy, Powe would have trouble cracking the active roster, and wouldn't see any floor time.  And while one can argue that TA is better than Marquis (I don't agree), if he's better, it's only marginally so, which really isn't a big deal considering that come next game, Marquis only has to back up Pierce for 10-15 mpg (now that Delonte is back). 

Re: Tony's contract / Danny's negotiating style
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2010, 01:05:38 PM »

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I think he also saw Powe and Tony as completely expendable, and he's right.  When this team is fully healthy, Powe would have trouble cracking the active roster, and wouldn't see any floor time.  And while one can argue that TA is better than Marquis (I don't agree), if he's better, it's only marginally so, which really isn't a big deal considering that come next game, Marquis only has to back up Pierce for 10-15 mpg (now that Delonte is back).  

This is exactly correct, and "the lesson of Scal."  The two mistakes on Scal's contract were the $$ and the length, with the length being the biggest mistake (his initial salary wasn't that bad).

That's what I see Danny doing:  only short-term contracts for role players.  Nate's deal is for more money/year than he may be worth as a backup PG, but is only 2 years.  JO is a role player at this point, and only got 2 years as well.  Perhaps either or both could have received a 3rd year elsewhere, but Danny isn't signing role players for longer than the stars.

Role players are, be definition, replacable, even when (as is the case with Smokey Q) the skill set is slightly different.  Powe is not and never will be a key piece of any playoff team, period.  Tony will never be a starter on a contender, or a top-3 option on anything but a team tanking for the lottery.  Posey might have two rings, but he was a BENCH role player in both cases.  It would be stupid to commit to these guys for emotional reasons, just as it would be stupid to turn down guaranteed money for emotional reasons on the part of players.

Re: Tony's contract / Danny's negotiating style
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2010, 01:10:33 PM »

Offline greenpride32

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Who cares about TA; seriously?

I respect the efforts he but put in when he was wearing green, but we are a better team this year without him.

Re: Tony's contract / Danny's negotiating style
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2010, 01:21:17 PM »

Offline clover

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If his style filters out idiots generally that may do more good than harm.

Re: Tony's contract / Danny's negotiating style
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2010, 01:24:46 PM »

Offline SamuelAdams

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I thought the real story there was Doc being pro and taking away any chalkboard material from T.A.

Smother them with kindness.  :)