ESPN *cough* Experts: Are the Celtics better than the Heat?

[footey]

  Kind of an aside, but every time I hear about a greatly talented team that hasn't put it all together yet I'm reminded of the pre-Moses 76ers.

Agreed, especially the team from the late 70's that signed up McGinnis, Lloyd Free, Darrell Dawkins, et. al. to go along with Dr. J.  They were supposed to just show up and win. The Trailblazers did not get the message.

[celticinorlando]

i have to disagree with the more talent aspect...the heat have 2 guys that would start for boston...nobody else....

[nickagneta]

  Kind of an aside, but every time I hear about a greatly talented team that hasn't put it all together yet I'm reminded of the pre-Moses 76ers.

Bless you Bball and TP.

Is the whole world of Heat and LeBron/Wade apologists forgetting that just three years ago the first "Big Three" coming together yielded an 8-0 and 29-3 start to the season and were just unbelievably dominant right away with possibly a worse cast role players?

When is this going to come into focus and expose the difference between the win all at expense and mature team attitudes of the Boston Big Three and the "I need to get mine" and "Why isn't everybody just laying down for us don't they know who we are" immature, non team structured attitudes of Miami's Big Three?

[Fafnir]

possibly a worse cast role players?

I'm not so sure about that.

I mean Posey in 07-08 was at least as good as Haslem is at his role right? Perkins was a better C than Anthony clearly. Rondo was inconsistent but better than Arroyo, but even when he was off we had a better version of Eddie House than the Heat do.

[guava_wrench]

It really is silly to try to gauge how good the Heat are right now. We need to wait a few months for their performances to be meaningful. It is obvious that they don't yet know how to play together. Their coach is still implementing their offense.

We have no idea whether or not they will learn to play together by the end of the season.

[Who]

It really is silly to try to gauge how good the Heat are right now. We need to wait a few months for their performances to be meaningful. It is obvious that they don't yet know how to play together. Their coach is still implementing their offense.

We have no idea whether or not they will learn to play together by the end of the season.

Agreed -- too early to know what Miami will capable of come playoff time.

[nickagneta]

possibly a worse cast role players?

I'm not so sure about that.

I mean Posey in 07-08 was at least as good as Haslem is at his role right? Perkins was a better C than Anthony clearly. Rondo was inconsistent but better than Arroyo, but even when he was off we had a better version of Eddie House than the Heat do.

That's debatable Faf. Remember, you are looking at that in hindsight but when the 2007-08 season started for the Celtics and the 2010-11 season started for the Heat, most national people had two very separate opinions on the benches of each team.

Rondo was still considered a major league project who's lack of a shot would make him a major liability. Perk was still a relative unknown commodity who was coming off a couple years of foot problems. Posey was picked up for next to nothing because of his horrible showing in Miami after the Heat feel of the side of the NBA world after their championship. House was considered a one trick pony and not considered a championship caliber role player yet. Baby and Leon were after thoughts as second year and rookie nothings.

The Heat on the other hand had battle hardened Mike Miller, Zydunas Ilgauskas, Udonis Haslem, and Eddie House as well as some other interesting though not so great parts.

The difference is as the season got roling the Celtics youth developed and got better and they became a dominant bench group. Miami's group isn't going to have that happen as their ceiling is only as good as healthy veteran legs will take them to be.

In retrospect, I believe you are right. But as each season started I would say that expectations were that the Heat would have a better bench than that 2007-08 Celtics team would have had.

[Birdbrain]

It really is silly to try to gauge how good the Heat are right now. We need to wait a few months for their performances to be meaningful. It is obvious that they don't yet know how to play together. Their coach is still implementing their offense.

We have no idea whether or not they will learn to play together by the end of the season.

They could gel until the cows come home but, they will still have major holes at PG and Center. 

[Fafnir]

In retrospect, I believe you are right. But as each season started I would say that expectations were that the Heat would have a better bench than that 2007-08 Celtics team would have had.

Yes but we aren't trying to look at things with how they were perceived, but how they actually were/are.

By that same token the Miami bench could become much stronger than it appears now. Mike Miller could have a big impact, and if Chalmers can fight his way out of the dog house I think he has the potential to much better than Arroyo/House.

But going on their current level of play, and past performance the Heat's bench is much weaker than the C's of 07-08.

The top 5 "other players" Heat:
House/Arroyo (their version of Cassell/House), James Jones, Haslem, Joel Anthony, Big Z

Celtics 07/08:
Rondo, House/Cassell, Posey, Perkins, Powe/Davis (whomever got minutes that game)

[erisred]

Ah! Is it Jello yet? Nope, yet.

[MBunge]

By that same token the Miami bench could become much stronger than it appears now. Mike Miller could have a big impact, and if Chalmers can fight his way out of the dog house I think he has the potential to much better than Arroyo/House.

I'm not sure what Miller will do that James Jones isn't doing already.  And what's the point of starting either Chalmers or Arroyo if they're just going to stand around waiting for Bron or Wade to throw them the ball?  And I can only guess they're starting the useless Anthony because Miami theoretically wants to run and he'd be better at that than Big Z.  Of course, the team isn't actually running and probably never will, so there goes that plan.

Miami clearly thinks their best lineup is Wade, Bron, Bosh, Haslem and Jones/Miller when he's heathly.  I don't particularly like it, but they apparently do.  So, why not start them?

Mike

[Jon]

Well, I think we're wishfully deluding ourselves if we think Miami isn't going to get better.  Bosh will likely improve and Mike Miller will help. 

Still, I think we're kidding ourselves if we think this is the best we're going to be.  We played last game with Shaq at less than full speed and Semeh Erden out there.  Throw in Perk and Delonte West (not to mention JO) and Miami never gets close and never makes a game out of that. 

I really think we're underestimating the impact of missing those guys.  Doc's having to ride the starters longer and doesn't give them breaks in the third quarter.  Once everyone's healthy, that won't be the case and the C's should stay strong all game. 

[LooseCannon]

Miami clearly thinks their best lineup is Wade, Bron, Bosh, Haslem and Jones/Miller when he's heathly.  I don't particularly like it, but they apparently do.  So, why not start them?

Because it would be like the Celtics starting Posey as a stretch 4 and Garnett as the center all season long in 07/08.

[Roy H.]

It really is silly to try to gauge how good the Heat are right now. We need to wait a few months for their performances to be meaningful. It is obvious that they don't yet know how to play together. Their coach is still implementing their offense.

We have no idea whether or not they will learn to play together by the end of the season.

They could gel until the cows come home but, they will still have major holes at PG and Center. 

Let's say they sign Dampier (apparently, they're talking to him again) and Mike Miller comes back healthy, with Wade sliding over to defend PGs.  That makes those two holes a lot less of a concern, right?

I'm hopeful that the Heat remain this soft and disjointed the entire season, but I don't think they will.  I think our playoff series with them will be a pretty tough battle (that we win).

[Fafnir]

It really is silly to try to gauge how good the Heat are right now. We need to wait a few months for their performances to be meaningful. It is obvious that they don't yet know how to play together. Their coach is still implementing their offense.

We have no idea whether or not they will learn to play together by the end of the season.

They could gel until the cows come home but, they will still have major holes at PG and Center. 

Let's say they sign Dampier (apparently, they're talking to him again) and Mike Miller comes back healthy, with Wade sliding over to defend PGs.  That makes those two holes a lot less of a concern, right?

I'm hopeful that the Heat remain this soft and disjointed the entire season, but I don't think they will.  I think our playoff series with them will be a pretty tough battle (that we win).

The Wade sliding over has already happened quite a bit. We did okay against it.

I do agree that Dampier will help them greatly, though I think he must have some sort of injury to still be available at this point.