C's vs. Heat Big Men Dilemma

[Meadowlark_Scal]

And don't give me the turnover BS.  This Celtics team, without Tony Allen, is still atrocious with turning the ball over.  And in game 7 last year Ray had some of the worst turnovers that I had seen in awhile.

The problem with Tony wasn't just turnovers, its that offensively he's an extreme liability.

If he was merely an average offensive player he'd be close to an all-star.

i think a lot of that was a "band-wagon" hype, the more people started bashing tony, the more the stroy got bigger, and less actual. He was a great slasher, getting better as a shooter, a great dunker, MD has no dunk ability, or hasn't shown it, TA's D was outstanding, and last year, as he went along and recovered from his knee, everything was just getting better...compare him with MD, the guy we got stuck with, no D to speak of, avg O, an improving shot, no slashing, no fast breaks..did you forget all that TA did that easily, he helped us by stopping the big guns, which opened up Ray A, and PP, that block on Gasol..a turn-around-inducing spark......who do we now have that can do what TA did..?

Uh there is/was no band wagon effect about it. (and I'm not sure what Marquis Daniels has to do with anything)

Tony killed our offense when he was in the game. He had a huge negative offensive +/- rating and was frequently left unguarded because he wasn't a shooter and was turnover prone when driving. Only when it becomes a fast break game or when teams let him slash is he an offensive asset.

Against disciplined defensive teams he allows them to play 4 on 5.

He's a lock down defender, but he costs his teams more points than he prevents.

the bandwagon part wasn't you..it was a lot of peeps here though, as for the O killer, well, that is your opinion, but for the C's lockdown D makes good O, that is how we roll here. Did they cover him, come on, a slasher and dunker like him, of course they did. As for MD, that is who we got stuck with at TA's expense, that should have / could have been his $$$, and i am thinking they figured, " We lost TA, but we got MD"  How could you let a D guy like TA go and not replace him..? How do you think we got to the finals last year.? We aren't a west coast team that scores 114 a night you know..it was old school D, like his.

[LooseCannon]

What?!  It's the man's only career, which on average lasts less than a decade for many, and he had an opportunity to not only make more money, but play more minutes.  Now, in the end it may not look good b/c he's not getting minutes, but at the time it was better for Tony.

It was pretty clear at the time that he wasn't going to get more minutes in Memphis than he did last season, so maybe it was only about the money. 

Or maybe he didn't enjoy being in Boston.  Or Ainge didn't really want him.  Maybe TA felt insecure that the team drafted a SG with a reputation as a lock-down defender.  Or maybe TA wanted to be considered the heir apparent to the starting SG role after Ray Allen.

[Fafnir]

And don't give me the turnover BS.  This Celtics team, without Tony Allen, is still atrocious with turning the ball over.  And in game 7 last year Ray had some of the worst turnovers that I had seen in awhile.

The problem with Tony wasn't just turnovers, its that offensively he's an extreme liability.

If he was merely an average offensive player he'd be close to an all-star.

i think a lot of that was a "band-wagon" hype, the more people started bashing tony, the more the stroy got bigger, and less actual. He was a great slasher, getting better as a shooter, a great dunker, MD has no dunk ability, or hasn't shown it, TA's D was outstanding, and last year, as he went along and recovered from his knee, everything was just getting better...compare him with MD, the guy we got stuck with, no D to speak of, avg O, an improving shot, no slashing, no fast breaks..did you forget all that TA did that easily, he helped us by stopping the big guns, which opened up Ray A, and PP, that block on Gasol..a turn-around-inducing spark......who do we now have that can do what TA did..?

Uh there is/was no band wagon effect about it. (and I'm not sure what Marquis Daniels has to do with anything)

Tony killed our offense when he was in the game. He had a huge negative offensive +/- rating and was frequently left unguarded because he wasn't a shooter and was turnover prone when driving. Only when it becomes a fast break game or when teams let him slash is he an offensive asset.

Against disciplined defensive teams he allows them to play 4 on 5.

He's a lock down defender, but he costs his teams more points than he prevents.

as for the O killer, well, that is your opinion

If he's such a great defender and an average offensive player, why doesn't he get more minutes?

Its my opinion, the opinion of a great number of other basketball observers, and what the +/- numbers tell us.

You bring Marquis in for no reason, again he was signed after Tony left as a second option. He's also played better than Tony has this year...

[mgent]

And don't give me the turnover BS.  This Celtics team, without Tony Allen, is still atrocious with turning the ball over.  And in game 7 last year Ray had some of the worst turnovers that I had seen in awhile.

The problem with Tony wasn't just turnovers, its that offensively he's an extreme liability.

If he was merely an average offensive player he'd be close to an all-star.

Define average offensive player.  His lack of a jump shot was a liability for spacing when Rondo or Marquis were on the court, but overall was he really a liability on offense?  He was one of our better finishers on cuts to the basket.  He was one of the only guys consistently crashing the offensive boards.  The few times he was given the ball to drive (and didn't turn it over) he finished at a pretty good percentage and could get to the line.

I don't think 6ppg in 16mpg on 51% shooting is that far off from an average role player.  And when given the ball and more consistent minutes in the past (06-07) he managed to double that average.  His 1.2 TO last year might be a tad bit on the high side, but other than spacing how exactly was he an extreme liability on offense?

[Fafnir]

His 1.2 TO last year might be a tad bit on the high side, but other than spacing how exactly was he an extreme liability on offense?

He's turnover prone, he doesn't space the floor, he can't handle the ball well, he's not a playmaker (passer), and he's not an exceptional offensive rebounder. (oops just looked this up he did a good job of that last year)

He's a good driver, but the problem is he typically either turns it over with an offensive foul or gets the the free throw line (where he's below average). Basically he forces things too much.

He's basically a garbage man on offense and you can't be a garbage man on offense when you're 6' 5" and play on the wing.

The only time he was truly effective was in the open court and against teams that would let him get into the lane. Since the C's aren't a fast break team that skill set wasn't utilized much (and he also turns it over on the break to much) and good defensive teams don't give him easy lanes to the cup.

Last year he generated .9 points per possession, that's bad for someone who doesn't get assists. Oh and in 06-07 he generated offense at almost exactly the same rate. Tony is the same player, he just has less minutes and opportunities.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

The C's aren't a fast break team is because the only one willing to run is Rondo, not being able to fast break..is not good at all....it makes for more work, too much sometimes, you let the D set, let the other team get into rythem..when the C's did fast break, then they had more to deal with..TA 6'5", blocked gasol big time...the losing of TA was just flat out wrong, a mistake, but we could fix that...!

[Jevi]

So basically we don't have any healthy bigs, that's just not acceptable for this team. Time to make Erden inactive, let his shoulder heal or get surgically done like Doc said. Do the same with whichever O'neal is far off. Either get Luke and Avery on the court now, or bring Magnum or Lasme to fill in. It would probably be the end of Wafer. Definitely nowhere near panic mode, but bigs need time to heal completely. C'mon Danny, Belichick made about ten moves in yesterday, your turn!

[Spilling Green Dye]

What?!  It's the man's only career, which on average lasts less than a decade for many, and he had an opportunity to not only make more money, but play more minutes.  Now, in the end it may not look good b/c he's not getting minutes, but at the time it was better for Tony.

It was pretty clear at the time that he wasn't going to get more minutes in Memphis than he did last season, so maybe it was only about the money. 

Or maybe he didn't enjoy being in Boston.  Or Ainge didn't really want him.  Maybe TA felt insecure that the team drafted a SG with a reputation as a lock-down defender.  Or maybe TA wanted to be considered the heir apparent to the starting SG role after Ray Allen.

I would say any of the reasons listed would be ample enough reason to make a career change to a different team and be justified doing so. 

[Spilling Green Dye]

Fafnir, in regards to Tony Allen, you don't think any of that has to do with the fact that the other guard (Rondo) couldn't shoot, and therefore as a whole it could kill things?  It's much easier to sag when you have 2 players who aren't good at shooting than it is 1.  Therefore, the problem for Tony could be partially blamed on Rondo too.

Tony wasn't terrible on offense like you suggest.  I don't think Doc utilized his slashing ability enough, and he proved time and time again that he could get to the hoop.

I hate to invoke the name of Glen Davis in this thread, but if you're bent on using +/- as the huge measuring stick for Tony Allen then Davis would in theory have zero place on an nba court (per last season stats).

Also, if someone is a lock down defender, then in theory they don't have to have any offense to be valuable.  Let's say you take the opposing team's best player and turn them into a subpar offensive player (through great defense)... that's a HUGE bonus, and much bigger than being able to shoot decent on the other end.

[Fafnir]

Fafnir, in regards to Tony Allen, you don't think any of that has to do with the fact that the other guard (Rondo) couldn't shoot, and therefore as a whole it could kill things?  It's much easier to sag when you have 2 players who aren't good at shooting than it is 1.  Therefore, the problem for Tony could be partially blamed on Rondo too.

Tony wasn't terrible on offense like you suggest.  I don't think Doc utilized his slashing ability enough, and he proved time and time again that he could get to the hoop.

I hate to invoke the name of Glen Davis in this thread, but if you're bent on using +/- as the huge measuring stick for Tony Allen then Davis would in theory have zero place on an nba court (per last season stats).

Also, if someone is a lock down defender, then in theory they don't have to have any offense to be valuable.  Let's say you take the opposing team's best player and turn them into a subpar offensive player (through great defense)... that's a HUGE bonus, and much bigger than being able to shoot decent on the other end.

I think your argument would have a lot more weight if Tony wasn't pretty much an identical offensive player to the one in 2006-2007. He hasn't developed his offensive game at all, his defense has improved but he's stagnated otherwise.

Having Rondo as our best pg complicated utilizing Tony, but he wasn't better with Nate Robinson on the floor.

Also, if someone is a lock down defender, then in theory they don't have to have any offense to be valuable.  Let's say you take the opposing team's best player and turn them into a subpar offensive player (through great defense)... that's a HUGE bonus, and much bigger than being able to shoot decent on the other end.

They have value as a role player, I never said Tony wasn't a valuable player to the C's last year. But overall when he's on the court he's a net negative because defense is only half the game.

[snively]

Other than Udonis Haslem, the Miami bigs posed 0 problem for our decimated front line.  KG has showed up in a big way this season.

[Fafnir]

Other than Udonis Haslem, the Miami bigs posed 0 problem for our decimated front line.  KG has showed up in a big way this season.

We got out rebounded by 6 in the second half though, KG had 10 of his rebounds in the first half as well.

Miami did a much better job in the second half handling our size.