Has KG gone too far (Charlie Villanueva comments) Update KG's response

[indeedproceed]

Crossing the line.


The real problem is - KG doesn't nearly yap as much to the Tim Duncans and Kobes of the world. He picks and chooses when he's going to be a jerk on the court.

This is the thing that gets me. When I see him going off at the mouth it's always at a lesser player. Or a guy that can't kick his butt.

In 08 him, Lamar and Gasol went after each other every night. I don't consider either of those players "lessor" to KG, at this stage of his career.

I do agree he bullies the young players more though. It seems like once you get a certain level of respect, KG lays off, but if you just got in the league (last 3-4 years) you are going to hear it all night.

And the thing is, it works. How many young stars/prospects get completely thrown off their game by it? we've seen it time and time again.

Well this is going to sound nerdy and completely stupid but here is my take on that:

Haven't you ever played a game (lets say NBA 2k) where you always had a go-to move? Like, lets say a cross-over followed by a spin always got you to the hoop. When you face someone new, that's the first thing you try, and you keep doing it until they stop it. Only after they stop it do you try running some plays.

If you're new to the league, KG's go-to move is to talk trash. If you show weakness to that, he'll keep doing it. It doesn't hurt his knees, it doesn't tire him out, and he'd be swearing profusely about something anyways, so why shouldn't it be you? Once you start to show you can't be rattled, KG will start working his real game more.

1) How do you guys not understand that KG's comment was really just making fun of people with alopecia (the hair loss condition that CV has)?? If I said "Chris Bosh looks like a dinosaur" I'm insulting Chris Bosh, not dinosaurs. Likewise, telling CV that he looks like a cancer patient is a knock on him, not on cancer patients.

I think everyone gets the joke. That's not the problem. For those who think these comments are little insensitive, its not CHarlie V's ego they're upset about.  

You clearly haven't "gotten" the joke if you think it's offensive to cancer patients.

Another example: if I said "you look like a freak" would I be insulting freaks everywhere? no

Saying that "person x looks like group y" is a statement meant to be insulting to person x. If group y is offended by that statement, it seems to me that they have some insecurity with their image, and hence resent ANYBODY being compared to them. Or in the case of cancer patients, they're a sacred cow of the politically sensitive realm, and aren't to be touched. Hence the overreaction whenever their name is so much as mentioned in one of these situations.

People need to relax a little bit.

/and before I'm accused of being insensitive, a family member of mine that i love is actually dying of cancer. but i won't use that as an excuse like CV for me to get mad at KG for comment's that weren't actually offensive.

I'm pretty sure we all understand what went on. I think maybe you're the one who is lacking the context. I agree that Charlie V is appealing to people because he can, because cancer is a big taboo topic in these things. But the whole "Saying that "person x looks like group y" is a statement meant to be insulting to person x. If group y is offended by that statement, it seems to me that they have some insecurity with their image, and hence resent ANYBODY being compared to them." I think is a little off. There are certain things you just don't say. If you took a white player that was a bit tan, and another white player told him he was a 'dumb n-word', it would be a big deal if it got out too. This is not that different.

I also think though (and said prior) that CV shouldn't have gone off in public about this. He shouldn't be appealing to people to tell him its okay and pat him on the back. He ought to have handled it himself privately if he was so offended.

[GreenFaith1819]

Crownsy - I don't know what your beef is, but I corrected myself.

Ok - I don't know what Bird or McHale would've said. I thougth that I had mentioned that.

Why does everyone think people have "beef" when you point out flaws/ inconsistent statements in their arguments?

this is a discussion board, we discuss. If you make statements that are later proven to be not well thought out, to me, It takes away from the weight of your arguments, and i point that out. I would hope others would do the same to me (and they have). that's how we have discussions.

It doesn't mean you have beef or some personal grudge against someone, it means you don't agree with their argument. The two things are separate, not that many people see the difference.

To bring up another poster, EJplayer, a poster i really like (like you too green) used to think i hated him because i pointed out when his arguments had holes in the logic/ had inconsistencies/ ect.

It took him getting really ticked at me and sending me a message for us to alleviate that misconception.

Disagreeing is not "hating" or "beef" or whatever other terms have been thrown out there. It's just disagreeing.

As a lawyer, I appreciate discussion boards when rational arguments are encouraged and inconsistencies are exposed. TP

But on the flipside, Crownsy - how do we know that Bird or McHale did NOT cross the line like KG did?

[soap07]

I also think though (and said prior) that CV shouldn't have gone off in public about this. He shouldn't be appealing to people to tell him its okay and pat him on the back. He ought to have handled it himself privately if he was so offended.

Why does it have to be handled privately? KG has many people that look up to him, whether right or wrong. If someone was that big of a jerk to me on a basketball court, it says something about their character and I'd want people to know about it.

[More Banners]

What ever happened to "shut up and play" or "let your game speak for itself?"

Will we one day think of KG the way GP's last few years went:  when he became a better trash talker than basketball player?

Did KG talk less trash early last season when he was clearly dragging his leg up and down the court like it was made of cement?  Did he learn any humility from that experience?

[Chris]

I also think though (and said prior) that CV shouldn't have gone off in public about this. He shouldn't be appealing to people to tell him its okay and pat him on the back. He ought to have handled it himself privately if he was so offended.

Why does it have to be handled privately? KG has many people that look up to him, whether right or wrong. If someone was that big of a jerk to me on a basketball court, it says something about their character and I'd want people to know about it.

Does it say something about his character, or say something about trashtalking in general.  If this really is something out of the ordinary on the court, then perhaps you would be right.  However, I don't believe that.  I think things like this are said all the time, but everyone knows it is just part of the game, so it stays on the court.

[CelticG1]

I also think though (and said prior) that CV shouldn't have gone off in public about this. He shouldn't be appealing to people to tell him its okay and pat him on the back. He ought to have handled it himself privately if he was so offended.

Why does it have to be handled privately? KG has many people that look up to him, whether right or wrong. If someone was that big of a jerk to me on a basketball court, it says something about their character and I'd want people to know about it.

I think it's the whole thing of ratting some one out or being a tattletale. I am not a big fan of someone tattletaling. Isn't this basically what CV is doing? If he had an issue he could have addressed it himself and gone off and told a million people.

Maybe it's just me but I was never a fan of kid's "telling" on other people to their teacher or in sports when player's are "telling" on other players to the ref.

Bottom line is that in sports there is a lot of emotion being thrown around and obviously many of the things you say you don't mean or would take back. This isn't an excuse for KG but it's not like he wrote CV a letter expressing how he felt. I guess now maybe KG will be aware that people might "tell" on him on the internet so maybe he will watch himself more.

[GreenFaith1819]

Crownsy - I don't know what your beef is, but I corrected myself.

Ok - I don't know what Bird or McHale would've said. I thougth that I had mentioned that.

Why does everyone think people have "beef" when you point out flaws/ inconsistent statements in their arguments?

this is a discussion board, we discuss. If you make statements that are later proven to be not well thought out, to me, It takes away from the weight of your arguments, and i point that out. I would hope others would do the same to me (and they have). that's how we have discussions.

It doesn't mean you have beef or some personal grudge against someone, it means you don't agree with their argument. The two things are separate, not that many people see the difference.

To bring up another poster, EJplayer, a poster i really like (like you too green) used to think i hated him because i pointed out when his arguments had holes in the logic/ had inconsistencies/ ect.

It took him getting really ticked at me and sending me a message for us to alleviate that misconception.

Disagreeing is not "hating" or "beef" or whatever other terms have been thrown out there. It's just disagreeing.

As a lawyer, I appreciate discussion boards when rational arguments are encouraged and inconsistencies are exposed. TP

But at the end of the day - was my comment REALLY inconsistent?

[gpap]

This might make me a homer, but I am finding this story with Villanueva just a little hard to believe.

Like others have said, if this happened, why is he reporting it on Twitter? Why not just do something about it on the court last night?

[GreenFaith1819]

But he has to know that there are real cancer patients in the world. When was the last time he visited a cancer ward?

March 15?

http://www.happynews.com/news/3152010/teen-meets-boston-celtics-kevin-garnett.htm

TP, How dare you bring facts into this Chris, The man is clearly a monster, not like those noted saints on the Court Larry Legend and MJ.

And does this mean that he can say what he wants to with no regard for repercussions?

[moiso]

I feel like much worse things have been said. If half the things said in the heat of battle were tweated after a game the public would be appalled.

Had Villaneuva actually had cancer it would be offensive.

I feel like this is a case of Charlie's feelings getting hurt because he is sensitive about the disease he has. Well, even with the disease he's still a millionaire player in the NBA.

Wow - because he has a different disease, it's not offensive?

And because Charlie makes good money, he should be immune to being a human being with issues about his lifelong disease?

No, Charlie should be a man and approach KG one on one. IT happened in the middle of a basketball game trash talk.

I've heard and probably said worse things at my local pick up spot. IF i have a real problem with it, I go up to the guy and tell him he crossed the line (happened like twice in 5 years of playing there)

I don't go home and post it on celticsblog/facebook ect and then challenge the guy to an internet fight.

That's bush league.

I think there's really two separate issues, thats what people are missing.

1) did KG cross the line? (I , and apparently many others think he did)

and the completely separate

2) is Charlie V a spineless player for dealing with it in public and doing the ultra bush league "I want to fight him...hold me back!" move after the fact,  and not as a man? (To which i also answer yes.)

Villanueva is not going to be able to get revenge on KG on a basketball court.  He's not good enough with the body or the mouth.  KG threw a low blow to Villanueva and Villanueva did the same in retaliation.  He got back at KG probably the only way he thought he could.  If he goes whining to KG after or during the game, he's going to look like even more of a baby to his peers.

you and me have different definitions about what it means to be a man and talk to someone one-on-one.

It's not a situation where you go up like a 10 year old and go "you big meanie!" and start acting like a spoiled child.

You go up after the game and go

"Hey man, just so you know, the cancer thing was a little overboard, I've got people in my life who died from that. I know it's a competitive game out there, but that's a little much"

and then you see what happens. If the guy acts like an moron, then fine, your the bigger man and he's a scumbag, and you move on with your life. who gives a flying pig if his teammates think he's hilarious or think your out of line. Those people don't effect my self image, there scumbags to if that's the case, and not worth the time it takes to think about them long enough to get angry.

but in my experience as an athlete, most times the other guy will go "sorry man, didn't realize i was crossing the line in the heat of the moment, my fault. we cool?"

problem solved, or at least addressed.

I agree 100%  But maybe Villanueva isn't the man that KG is.  That still doesn't give KG the right to behave the way he does.  Plus someone posted that KG yelled at Villanueva that he's a f'ing loser after the game as they were walking off the court.  That doesn't sound like the kind of guy who could have a rational dialoge about a serious subject.  Or even listen to a few words.

[drza44]

Crossing the line.


The real problem is - KG doesn't nearly yap as much to the Tim Duncans and Kobes of the world. He picks and chooses when he's going to be a jerk on the court.

I go back and forth on this.  On one hand, that is kind of weak.  But the more I think about it, shouldn't KG be talking trash to the guys he is killing rather than the guys who he is struggling against?

I mean, the Kobe and Duncans of the world shut KG up with their play.  They earn his respect, and they also don't get rattled by the trashtalk.

He talks more to guys like CV, because he does nothing to earn respect.  He plays weak, and does nothing with his talent, and then goes whining on twitter afterwards.  That is EXACTLY the type of player you trash talk with, because you know you can get in their head.

The topic as a whole...I continue to be shocked at the mountains that folks will make out of molehills as far as KG's on-court behavior.  And in this case it's alleged behavior, as we really have no idea what was said here.  But whatever.

This particular set of criticisms, though, that KG won't go at great players just isn't true.  It's been shown many times.  A quick search of my old posts pulled up some visual examples of KG going at Duncan and jawing with Kobe.  There was also the game last year where he and LeBron trash-talked each other at the free throw line continuously over the last two minutes of the game.  Or when he did the crazy defense-get-completely-under-Bosh's-chest thing to show how little he thought of him.  Or him and Amare getting into it through the years.

Yes, Garnett is likely to spend more effort going after someone that is an obvious weak spot because the whole point of trash talk is to get someone else out of their game.  But he's absolutely shown that he'll go at the best of the best if the situation arises.  

[indeedproceed]

Yes, Garnett is likely to spend more effort going after someone that is an obvious weak spot because the whole point of trash talk is to get someone else out of their game.  But he's absolutely shown that he'll go at the best of the best if the situation arises. 

This is more accurate than what I said earlier. KG will still jaw with anyone, but he is more likely to be more persistent and intense about it with someone he feels is vulnerable.

[crownsy]

Crownsy - I don't know what your beef is, but I corrected myself.

Ok - I don't know what Bird or McHale would've said. I thougth that I had mentioned that.

Why does everyone think people have "beef" when you point out flaws/ inconsistent statements in their arguments?

this is a discussion board, we discuss. If you make statements that are later proven to be not well thought out, to me, It takes away from the weight of your arguments, and i point that out. I would hope others would do the same to me (and they have). that's how we have discussions.

It doesn't mean you have beef or some personal grudge against someone, it means you don't agree with their argument. The two things are separate, not that many people see the difference.

To bring up another poster, EJplayer, a poster i really like (like you too green) used to think i hated him because i pointed out when his arguments had holes in the logic/ had inconsistencies/ ect.

It took him getting really ticked at me and sending me a message for us to alleviate that misconception.

Disagreeing is not "hating" or "beef" or whatever other terms have been thrown out there. It's just disagreeing.

As a lawyer, I appreciate discussion boards when rational arguments are encouraged and inconsistencies are exposed. TP

But on the flipside, Crownsy - how do we know that Bird or McHale did NOT cross the line like KG did?

I don't understand...that is Chris and I's contention, that players from other generations did cross that line, and while still inappropriate, It simply wasn't handled in the new social media so fans didn't have access to it.

I find it far more likely, though of course I can't say for sure, knowing what we know from information released from that Era through biographies, stories after the fact, ect, that Bird and MJ may very well have mocked someones physical appearance by comparing it to a medical condition.

EDIT: as to inconsistent statements, yes, in my opinion the following chain is inconsistent:

1. When's the last time HE visited a cancer ward? (clearly implieing that he has no grounding in the issue and thus may not understand how offensive this is to survivors and patients)

2. Chris points out he had such contact as recently as march

3. Well, then he should know better (now taking the exact opposite stance, that his knowledge should have made him even more aware of the impact of his statement)

But regardless, and mabey it's because i'm a law student and currently trapped in evidence class and thinking this way, the simple fact that the statement is inconsistent doesn't dismiss it's point, just lessens the weight i Accord the argument.

P.S right back at you ballin, and I cannot promise you won't be getting a PM begging for an inside look at the profession from a desperate law student

[Fafnir]

Crownsy - I don't know what your beef is, but I corrected myself.

Ok - I don't know what Bird or McHale would've said. I thougth that I had mentioned that.

Why does everyone think people have "beef" when you point out flaws/ inconsistent statements in their arguments?

this is a discussion board, we discuss. If you make statements that are later proven to be not well thought out, to me, It takes away from the weight of your arguments, and i point that out. I would hope others would do the same to me (and they have). that's how we have discussions.

It doesn't mean you have beef or some personal grudge against someone, it means you don't agree with their argument. The two things are separate, not that many people see the difference.

To bring up another poster, EJplayer, a poster i really like (like you too green) used to think i hated him because i pointed out when his arguments had holes in the logic/ had inconsistencies/ ect.

It took him getting really ticked at me and sending me a message for us to alleviate that misconception.

Disagreeing is not "hating" or "beef" or whatever other terms have been thrown out there. It's just disagreeing.

As a lawyer, I appreciate discussion boards when rational arguments are encouraged and inconsistencies are exposed. TP

But at the end of the day - was my comment REALLY inconsistent?

It was logically flawed, which is what I gather he meant by inconsistenties.

[crownsy]

Crownsy - I don't know what your beef is, but I corrected myself.

Ok - I don't know what Bird or McHale would've said. I thougth that I had mentioned that.

Why does everyone think people have "beef" when you point out flaws/ inconsistent statements in their arguments?

this is a discussion board, we discuss. If you make statements that are later proven to be not well thought out, to me, It takes away from the weight of your arguments, and i point that out. I would hope others would do the same to me (and they have). that's how we have discussions.

It doesn't mean you have beef or some personal grudge against someone, it means you don't agree with their argument. The two things are separate, not that many people see the difference.

To bring up another poster, EJplayer, a poster i really like (like you too green) used to think i hated him because i pointed out when his arguments had holes in the logic/ had inconsistencies/ ect.

It took him getting really ticked at me and sending me a message for us to alleviate that misconception.

Disagreeing is not "hating" or "beef" or whatever other terms have been thrown out there. It's just disagreeing.

As a lawyer, I appreciate discussion boards when rational arguments are encouraged and inconsistencies are exposed. TP

But at the end of the day - was my comment REALLY inconsistent?

It was logically flawed, which is what I gather he meant by inconsistenties.

True faf, and looking back on it mabey an even better word would have been contradictory.