Shaq riding the pine in late situations

[kozlodoev]

They can't foul him if he doesn't have the ball.

Yes they can. They can foul him whenever they want.

In late game situations if they foul him without the ball its one shot and the ball.

Since when? Fouls off the ball happen all the time when Ray Allen runs off picks, and I haven't seen a one-and-the-ball come out of any of them. It's only applicable when you're inbounding, and the foul appears before the ball is in play, no?

[KGs Knee]

They can't foul him if he doesn't have the ball.

Yes they can. They can foul him whenever they want.

In late game situations if they foul him without the ball its one shot and the ball.

Since when? Fouls off the ball happen all the time when Ray Allen runs off picks, and I haven't seen a one-and-the-ball come out of any of them. It's only applicable when you're inbounding, and the foul appears before the ball is in play, no?

I'm pretty sure that the one shot and the ball rule late in games for intentional off the ball fouls is true.  I believe, however, it is up to the refs discretion.  If a foul appears to be incidental, then it is treated as any other foul.  If the foul is deemed to be intentional, then the player fouled is given one shot, and the team then retains possesion.

It would be pretty ridiculous to allow a team to foul someone who doesn't even have the ball with the purpose of gaining an advantage.  I personally think the rule should be in effect for the entire game, but understand why it isn't.  If this was the rule for the entire game it would lead to an even slower pace of play and longer games in general.

[Celtics4ever]

Its definitely his defense that locks him down.

[Fafnir]

They can't foul him if he doesn't have the ball.

Yes they can. They can foul him whenever they want.

In late game situations if they foul him without the ball its one shot and the ball.

Since when? Fouls off the ball happen all the time when Ray Allen runs off picks, and I haven't seen a one-and-the-ball come out of any of them. It's only applicable when you're inbounding, and the foul appears before the ball is in play, no?

The rule is for intentional fouls late in the fourth quarter. That's different than the sort of grabbing Ray Allen fouls you've seen before, though I'll add usually they aren't calling those late in the game.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12.html?nav=ArticleList

a. During the last two minutes of the fourth period or overtime period(s) with the offensive team in possession of the ball, all personal fouls which are assessed against the defensive team prior to the ball being released on a throw-in and/or away-from-the-play, shall be administered as follows:
(1) A personal foul and team foul shall be assessed and one free throw attempt shall be awarded. The free throw may be attempted by any play-er in the game at the time the personal foul was committed.
(2) If the foul occurs when the ball is inbounds, the offended team shall be awarded the ball at the nearest point where play was interrupted but no nearer to the baseline than the free throw line extended.
(3) If the foul occurs prior to the release on a throw-in, the offended team shall be awarded the ball at the original throw-in spot, with all privileges, if any, remaining.

So in the last two minutes of the game they couldn't hack-a-Shaq. But he's a liability on defense and still couldn't touch the ball on offense without likely being fouled immediately.

[Chris]

So in the last two minutes of the game they couldn't hack-a-Shaq. But he's a liability on defense and still couldn't touch the ball on offense without likely being fouled immediately.

Right.  The reason you do not want him in the game late is because his strength (low post offense) will be taken away, since they will simply foul him the second the ball is passed to him.  Davis, and JO for that matter, are both better defensive players, so it makes much more sense to have them in the game, since Shaq's strength is negated, which moves both of them up the depth chart at the end of games.

Where Shaqs real value to this team is going to be is at the beginning of quarters.  He can get other teams in foul trouble better than almost anyone in the league.  If they feed him the ball for the first two minutes of each quarter, the two most likely scenarios are A. the C's get easy baskets or B. the other team gets close to the penalty very early, giving the C's an advantage for the rest of the quarter.

[CelticG1]

So in the last two minutes of the game they couldn't hack-a-Shaq. But he's a liability on defense and still couldn't touch the ball on offense without likely being fouled immediately.

Right.  The reason you do not want him in the game late is because his strength (low post offense) will be taken away, since they will simply foul him the second the ball is passed to him.  Davis, and JO for that matter, are both better defensive players, so it makes much more sense to have them in the game, since Shaq's strength is negated, which moves both of them up the depth chart at the end of games.

Where Shaqs real value to this team is going to be is at the beginning of quarters.  He can get other teams in foul trouble better than almost anyone in the league.  If they feed him the ball for the first two minutes of each quarter, the two most likely scenarios are A. the C's get easy baskets or B. the other team gets close to the penalty very early, giving the C's an advantage for the rest of the quarter.

I think you guys are way overblowing this hack a Shaq thing. We were down against the Cavs I don't think cleveland was just going to foul Shaq on purpose and take the 50/50 gamble at the free throw line. I think this is a tactic more used when a team is down late in a game and want to stop the clock take the risk at the free throw line. When the Cavs were up in that situation why would they want to stop the clock by intentionally fouling? Didn't you see Sessions and the rest of the Cavs get upset when he fouled Rondo late in the game on a drive to the basket? And Rondo is a terrible free throw shooter. I wouldn't really be all that upset if the Cavs were intentionally fouling Shaq during certain times in crunch time. I don't even think they were in the penalty till  the last 30 seconds of the game anyway.

[Fafnir]

So in the last two minutes of the game they couldn't hack-a-Shaq. But he's a liability on defense and still couldn't touch the ball on offense without likely being fouled immediately.

Right.  The reason you do not want him in the game late is because his strength (low post offense) will be taken away, since they will simply foul him the second the ball is passed to him.  Davis, and JO for that matter, are both better defensive players, so it makes much more sense to have them in the game, since Shaq's strength is negated, which moves both of them up the depth chart at the end of games.

Where Shaqs real value to this team is going to be is at the beginning of quarters.  He can get other teams in foul trouble better than almost anyone in the league.  If they feed him the ball for the first two minutes of each quarter, the two most likely scenarios are A. the C's get easy baskets or B. the other team gets close to the penalty very early, giving the C's an advantage for the rest of the quarter.

I think you guys are way overblowing this hack a Shaq thing. We were down against the Cavs I don't think cleveland was just going to foul Shaq on purpose and take the 50/50 gamble at the free throw line. I think this is a tactic more used when a team is down late in a game and want to stop the clock take the risk at the free throw line. When the Cavs were up in that situation why would they want to stop the clock by intentionally fouling? Didn't you see Sessions and the rest of the Cavs get upset when he fouled Rondo late in the game on a drive to the basket? And Rondo is a terrible free throw shooter. I wouldn't really be all that upset if the Cavs were intentionally fouling Shaq during certain times in crunch time. I don't even think they were in the penalty till  the last 30 seconds of the game anyway.

Its not so much that I think every team will go Hack-a-Shaq with him. Its that if he gets the ball in the post in a good position they'll foul him right away. So effectively we can't use his post offense late in games. So instead of an offensive threat that can space the floor or cut ot the hoop, we have a post player who can't post up.

Meanwhile at the other end he's a defensive liability.

[pearljammer10]

I thought Shaq should have been in the game in the final minutes vs the Cavs IMO. Baby played a great game but Shaq should have at least been given a few minutes at the end of the 4th. I found myself wondering why he wasn't in the game late.

[Fafnir]

I thought Shaq should have been in the game in the final minutes vs the Cavs IMO. Baby played a great game but Shaq should have at least been given a few minutes at the end of the 4th. I found myself wondering why he wasn't in the game late.

Defense.

Shaq's last few minutes he was exposed twice in the P&R. He gave up fouls for free throws both times. Sessions and AV would have gone right at him.

[Q_FBE]

Probably due to crunch time matchups and defense in late game situations. Shaq is not the mighty force he once was but he can be spark plug in the middle game.

Just more coaching tactics, I am sure.

[droopdog7]

The problem with playing Shaq in late game situation are on offense and defense.  Obviously we are aware of his liabilities at the line.  But in a tight game, the opposing team very likely attack Shaq using the pick and roll. 

So I can see why Doc hasn't played him late in these two games.

[Celtics4ever]

Shaq is a load who can really lean on peeps and make them tired in the beginning of a game.   Its hard to play when a big un is leaning on you.  But he is a liability because of conditioning and defense in the 4th quarter.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

I see everyone talking about Shaq's lack of D but, if you watch the game, when Shaq played with the starters we had the lead! I thought our D was better w/ Shaq and the starters even if he had to knock the stuffing out of one of them! Those two fouls you mention was w/ Shaq and the bench... from what I have seen, the bench and Shaq don't play well together.  We needed a hard foul from Shaq late which would have pumped up everyone else to lock down their man or knock them out! When Shaq sat out the 4th Q in one of the earlier games last playoffs against the Celts, LeBronda and everyone was shocked (bronda basically said he didn't know what Brown was thinking) b/c the Cavs were playing better with him in. Contrary to what people believe Shaq plays better than credited in crunch situations (even has a little better ft %)!

[droopdog7]

I see everyone talking about Shaq's lack of D but, if you watch the game, when Shaq played with the starters we had the lead! I thought our D was better w/ Shaq and the starters even if he had to knock the stuffing out of one of them! Those two fouls you mention was w/ Shaq and the bench... from what I have seen, the bench and Shaq don't play well together.  We needed a hard foul from Shaq late which would have pumped up everyone else to lock down their man or knock them out! When Shaq sat out the 4th Q in one of the earlier games last playoffs against the Celts, LeBronda and everyone was shocked (bronda basically said he didn't know what Brown was thinking) b/c the Cavs were playing better with him in. Contrary to what people believe Shaq plays better than credited in crunch situations (even has a little better ft %)!

The problem is that late game strategies differ from early game strategy.  At the beginning of games, guys are just trying to spread the ball around and get people involved.  At the end of close games, teams will go to the bread and butter (or what they think will be most effective).  It is fairly proven that Shaw doesn't cover the pick and roll very well.  I suspect teams would go to that fairly often if Shaq were in at the end of games.

[Celtics4ever]

His FTs are bad too if the game is close will be Hack a Shaq time.