Author Topic: 2010-11 Regular Season  (Read 316437 times)

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Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1185 on: March 04, 2011, 01:00:34 AM »

Offline mgent

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They need to put the ball more in Wade's hand at the end of games. The play they ran against us was very good, we were fortunate that Miller missed the 3. They should do more crap like that.
Yeah like when LeBron passed it to Eddie for the game winner.

LeBron is 0-3 on game winners this year.  Wonder how many Wade even has.
Philly:

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Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1186 on: March 04, 2011, 01:03:45 AM »

Offline Megatron

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Winning close games is a lot about randomness. Luck.

Its about having a go-to play and go-to player.

We have Pierce and Ray, but the rest of our roster is capable of coming up in the clutch as well.

Miami has no go-to end of game plays, and all of their main players arent clutch. LeBron has hit 1 clutch shot in his entire career.

No, you're wrong. It's mostly about luck.

Last season Cleveland won the same % of close game as Boston and Miami actually won more. Toronto was actually one of the top teams in the NBA winning close games, won 63.2% of them.

There are cases of teams that in consecutive years, with basically the same roster and the same coach, go from being one of the best in winning close games to be one of the worst and then back to be good again. Has happened to the Spurs this past decade: they 11-9 in games decided by five points or fewer in 07/08, 8-11 in 06/07 (when they actually won the championship). The year before, San Antonio went 14-5.

It's mostly about luck. There's a correlation with how good the team is, with the team record, but over/under performance relatively to the expectations is randomness. Not "clutch players" or coaching.

Im sorry but saying that winning close games comes down to "luck" is just plain ignorant.

Legends of this game would laugh in your face if you dare said such a thing out in public.

No clue why Im even having this conversation right now, saying close games are determined by luck has to be the funniest thing I have heard all month.

Sorry if this offends you but your wrong.

Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1187 on: March 04, 2011, 01:04:21 AM »

Offline Atzar

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Wins and losses are a statistic.  Toronto winning 63.2% of close games is a statistic.  

I'm saying that it's not correct to explain away the outcomes of close games as luck.  Certain players got reputations as clutch players for a reason.  They didn't get their rep for being lucky, unless you think they've just been lucky time after time whenever they've won a close game for their team.  You're also ignoring the psychological aspect of the game.

Go read my post again if you didn't understand it.  I wasn't unclear.

Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1188 on: March 04, 2011, 01:25:35 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Dwight Howard really had no impact on the game.

Not true.

He still ended up with 14pts 18rbs 5ast 5blks...

His scoring was not too impressive, but the magic ended up being this open all the time from beyond the arc because he forced the heat to send bodies at him, away from the perimeter...

Also his defense was a big part why the heat struggled offensively...
Just him being in the paint has a huge impact on anyone driving to the paint and trying to shoot over him...
Unfortunately the other magic players often failed to rotate and secure the defensive rebound when he did his job in help defense, giving miami offensive rebounds...

I'll say he didn't have the impact I would've expected him to have against miami, but he still had a pretty big impact
Howard dominated the glass in the fourth quarter.

You can close out games without scoring a point if you're the C.

Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1189 on: March 04, 2011, 01:40:43 AM »

Offline 4THQTR

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Dwight Howard really had no impact on the game.

Not true.

He still ended up with 14pts 18rbs 5ast 5blks...

His scoring was not too impressive, but the magic ended up being this open all the time from beyond the arc because he forced the heat to send bodies at him, away from the perimeter...

Also his defense was a big part why the heat struggled offensively...
Just him being in the paint has a huge impact on anyone driving to the paint and trying to shoot over him...
Unfortunately the other magic players often failed to rotate and secure the defensive rebound when he did his job in help defense, giving miami offensive rebounds...

I'll say he didn't have the impact I would've expected him to have against miami, but he still had a pretty big impact
Howard dominated the glass in the fourth quarter.

You can close out games without scoring a point if you're the C.


yap

for another example of that phenomenon see: Rondo, Rajon

Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1190 on: March 04, 2011, 09:47:51 AM »

Offline Mike-Dub

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Anyone gonna watch the Raptors Nets game from London today?

I'm pretty intriqued by the event... Not so much the game itself.
"It's all about having the heart of a champion." - #34 Paul Pierce

Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1191 on: March 04, 2011, 10:18:55 AM »

Online snively

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I think it was pretty much a fluke loss for Miami.  Orlando is not going to shoot 55% on 29 threes for an entire series much less 2 games in a row.  They should just move on.

Just like Phoenix's run last night: occasionally you get lucky and shoot your way to victory, but mostly you miss and give fast break teams like Miami long rebounds to run and score.
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Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1192 on: March 04, 2011, 10:23:52 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I think it was pretty much a fluke loss for Miami.  Orlando is not going to shoot 55% on 29 threes for an entire series much less 2 games in a row.  They should just move on.

Just like Phoenix's run last night: occasionally you get lucky and shoot your way to victory, but mostly you miss and give fast break teams like Miami long rebounds to run and score.
I don't know if I can dismiss it that easily.

Orlando shot a fluky percentage to get back into the game, but the Heat (mainly LeBron/Wade) also hit a fluky percentage of jump shots early to build their lead.

With how rattled the Heat looked in the post-game pressers I don't know. I'm very interested to watch the Spurs/Heat game. Back to back on the road will be a nice test of how tough they are mentally and physically.

Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1193 on: March 04, 2011, 11:37:35 AM »

Offline Greenbean

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I think it was pretty much a fluke loss for Miami.  Orlando is not going to shoot 55% on 29 threes for an entire series much less 2 games in a row.  They should just move on.

Just like Phoenix's run last night: occasionally you get lucky and shoot your way to victory, but mostly you miss and give fast break teams like Miami long rebounds to run and score.
I don't know if I can dismiss it that easily.

Orlando shot a fluky percentage to get back into the game, but the Heat (mainly LeBron/Wade) also hit a fluky percentage of jump shots early to build their lead.

With how rattled the Heat looked in the post-game pressers I don't know. I'm very interested to watch the Spurs/Heat game. Back to back on the road will be a nice test of how tough they are mentally and physically.

Good point. To me (only say the highlights) if it was a game with a lot of jumpshots and 3's, then Orlando really dictated the game. Orlando has much better shooters than Miami.

Actually the one game i did watch between Orlando and Miami (a MIA blowout), Orlando tried too hard to take advantage of the Howard mismatch and went away from their strength.

Seems like this one was all Orlando.

I too will be watching Spurs/Heat. They all looks soooo dejected after that (reg. season) loss...it can make or break a season (see Jets/Pats 2nd regular season game).


Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1194 on: March 04, 2011, 12:57:41 PM »

Offline droponov

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Wins and losses are a statistic.  Toronto winning 63.2% of close games is a statistic.  

I'm saying that it's not correct to explain away the outcomes of close games as luck.  Certain players got reputations as clutch players for a reason.  They didn't get their rep for being lucky, unless you think they've just been lucky time after time whenever they've won a close game for their team.  You're also ignoring the psychological aspect of the game.

Go read my post again if you didn't understand it.  I wasn't unclear.

Of course, Toronto winning 63.2% of close games is a statistic that tells use the % of winning games Toronto wins. When you look at the winning % of close games for all teams with a sample of decades and can't identify a pattern, you can attribute it to randomness.

Unless your point is that the winning % of close games doesn't define correctly the winning % of close games or how successful are teams winning close games. If that's the case, I really don't know what to say.

I don't understand your fascination with "clutch players" or whatever. How are they relevant? Maybe your point is that teams with "clutch players" win a bigger % of their close games? But in that case, we should see that in the winning % of close games. But we don't - which means that either there aren't clutch players or that clutch players are guys who move from team to team every season or that clutchness is a skill that you have in one year and lose in another one. I mean, who are those clutch players who are the factor deciding wins in close games, that give their teams an advantage in close games? Which are the teams with the best clutch players?

Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1195 on: March 04, 2011, 01:13:06 PM »

Offline droponov

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Winning close games is a lot about randomness. Luck.

Its about having a go-to play and go-to player.

We have Pierce and Ray, but the rest of our roster is capable of coming up in the clutch as well.

Miami has no go-to end of game plays, and all of their main players arent clutch. LeBron has hit 1 clutch shot in his entire career.

No, you're wrong. It's mostly about luck.

Last season Cleveland won the same % of close game as Boston and Miami actually won more. Toronto was actually one of the top teams in the NBA winning close games, won 63.2% of them.

There are cases of teams that in consecutive years, with basically the same roster and the same coach, go from being one of the best in winning close games to be one of the worst and then back to be good again. Has happened to the Spurs this past decade: they 11-9 in games decided by five points or fewer in 07/08, 8-11 in 06/07 (when they actually won the championship). The year before, San Antonio went 14-5.

It's mostly about luck. There's a correlation with how good the team is, with the team record, but over/under performance relatively to the expectations is randomness. Not "clutch players" or coaching.

Im sorry but saying that winning close games comes down to "luck" is just plain ignorant.

Legends of this game would laugh in your face if you dare said such a thing out in public.

No clue why Im even having this conversation right now, saying close games are determined by luck has to be the funniest thing I have heard all month.

Sorry if this offends you but your wrong.

Actually the first time I learned this was reading Dean Smith's book that was written in 1980 or 1981. Coaches have known this for decades, that's why before the shot-clock era some guys would try to slow down the pace to the extreme, to play as few possessions as possible and increase their chances of winning games.

Anyway, it seems you don't even try to refute my arguments. It seems you just got enervated and without any good refutation you decided to resort to simply call me ignorant, say people would laugh at my face and some sarcastic remarks. That was it, wasn't it?

Btw, you probably misread what I wrote: besides the overall talent of the team, close games are decided by luck. If it was only by luck, you'd see an even larger variation. Good teams tend to win more close games (even though it happens often that a good team has a negative record on close games, even an awful record), but not at the same % they win non-close games. Why? Exactly because of that randomness.

I'll try to use an analogy that a person like you may be able to understand: imagine you and 4 of your friends are going to play a basketball game against a NBA team, the Celtics. In the 1st scenario, you play a full game. 48 minutes, dozens of possessions. Obviously, you'd have no chance of making it a close game, you'd lose 220-6 or so. If they weren't going for a full-court pressure, you'd slow down the game to make the score as close as possible - limit their chances to score baskets. You'd only shoot in the last couple of seconds of the shot-clock. In a run'n'gun game, they'd probably score more than 300 points if they wanted to. In any case, you'd have no chance of winning the game - even if they missed their first shot for whatever reason and you'd luck into making a half-court desperation shot in your first attempt. It'd be a very temporary advantage.

Now imagine a game, not with 48 minutes, but with only 2 possessions - each team could take a shot/commit a turnover. A 30 seconds game or so. You'd probably lose 99% of those games too. But here you'd have a chance, even if a minuscule one, because lucky/unlucky shots happen.You could hit that 2 pointer from the half-court. And you'd win that game.

Close games are basically games decided in a couple of  possessions. A couple of baskets that are made or missed. And in such a short sample, randomness is immense. Bad teams have a much better chance than beating good teams - even you and your friends could luck into it, let alone another NBA team, even if a truly horrible one.

Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1196 on: March 04, 2011, 01:42:41 PM »

Offline cman88

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I think by putting it all to luck, you are discounting the mental aspect of the game.

Some players thrive off of pressure on the big stage. Ray allen, pierce, even Kobe...those guys keep their cool and thrive off the pressure... we've all seen Ray allen hit clutch shots without hesitation  that helped put teams away. dont tell me its just luck.

Lebron buckles under the pressure....its not the first time that he has choked in a close game. The guy hasnt won anything on the big stage and when the going gets tough you can expect that lebron will play worse

Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1197 on: March 04, 2011, 01:42:54 PM »

Offline ACF

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Anyone gonna watch the Raptors Nets game from London today?

Yes, I am.

Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1198 on: March 04, 2011, 01:44:56 PM »

Offline droponov

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I think by putting it all to luck, you are discounting the mental aspect of the game.

Some players thrive off of pressure on the big stage. Ray allen, pierce, even Kobe...those guys keep their cool and thrive off the pressure... we've all seen Ray allen hit clutch shots without hesitation  that helped put teams away. dont tell me its just luck.

Lebron buckles under the pressure....its not the first time that he has choked in a close game. The guy hasnt won anything on the big stage and when the going gets tough you can expect that lebron will play worse

Nah, I don't think I am. I'm arguing about how close games are decided. Not if player x or player y plays better or worse in pressure situations.

And again, I'm not putting it all on luck. In fact, I explicitly corrected another poster on that. You should read more carefully.

Re: 2010-11 Regular Season
« Reply #1199 on: March 04, 2011, 02:17:30 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I think by putting it all to luck, you are discounting the mental aspect of the game.

Some players thrive off of pressure on the big stage. Ray allen, pierce, even Kobe...those guys keep their cool and thrive off the pressure... we've all seen Ray allen hit clutch shots without hesitation  that helped put teams away. dont tell me its just luck.

Lebron buckles under the pressure....its not the first time that he has choked in a close game. The guy hasnt won anything on the big stage and when the going gets tough you can expect that lebron will play worse

Nah, I don't think I am. I'm arguing about how close games are decided. Not if player x or player y plays better or worse in pressure situations.

And again, I'm not putting it all on luck. In fact, I explicitly corrected another poster on that. You should read more carefully.

Interesting debate here, albeit a little off-topic.  But droponov is essentially correct: some teams and players are more "clutch" (likely to win close games) than others.  But other, more random factors play a larger role, which is why close-game records tend to be all over the place.

LeBron has choked multiple times in close games - but so has every other superstar in the league.  Kobe has made lots of game-winners, but it's because he takes a lot of attempts - his percentage in those situations is pretty lousy.  We've seen Paul Pierce fail on iso plays and miss key free throws many times.  Even Ray Allen has missed plenty of big shots.  Going back, anybody remember this ad?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-EMOb3ATJ0


Even Jordan, remembered as the king of clutch (and rightly so), missed dozens of last-second shots.  But everyone only remembers the ones he made.  Clutchness exists, but a lot of fans seriously overrate its impact.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 02:22:55 PM by fairweatherfan »