Author Topic: Player Salary Cuts  (Read 19235 times)

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Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2010, 03:17:26 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Did any one see this one?


http://phet.colorado.edu/sims/projectile-motion/projectile-motion_en.html



Quote
A person with knowledge of the owners' discussions said the league "will continue to be open to contraction" as a possible mechanism for restoring the league to profitability.


I am a fan of this as well.  

  Pretty interesting web page, but probably not the link you meant to put in your post.


Yes it is.


My fault.  That's what my students are going to be using in class Monday.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/14168647/nba-owners-float-contraction-along-with-huge-pay-cuts

Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2010, 03:30:32 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Did any one see this one?


http://phet.colorado.edu/sims/projectile-motion/projectile-motion_en.html



Quote
A person with knowledge of the owners' discussions said the league "will continue to be open to contraction" as a possible mechanism for restoring the league to profitability.


I am a fan of this as well.  

  Pretty interesting web page, but probably not the link you meant to put in your post.


Yes it is.


My fault.  That's what my students are going to be using in class Monday.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/14168647/nba-owners-float-contraction-along-with-huge-pay-cuts

  Judging by the numbers, I'd say my first attempt (75 degrees, 1800 m/s) achieved escape velocity.

Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2010, 03:36:35 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Did any one see this one?


http://phet.colorado.edu/sims/projectile-motion/projectile-motion_en.html



Quote
A person with knowledge of the owners' discussions said the league "will continue to be open to contraction" as a possible mechanism for restoring the league to profitability.


I am a fan of this as well.  

  Pretty interesting web page, but probably not the link you meant to put in your post.


Yes it is.


My fault.  That's what my students are going to be using in class Monday.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/14168647/nba-owners-float-contraction-along-with-huge-pay-cuts

  Judging by the numbers, I'd say my first attempt (75 degrees, 1800 m/s) achieved escape velocity.

So it took about 354.8 seconds to land?  (just under 6 minutes)

Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2010, 03:40:32 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Reached a height of around 154220 m?



As long as air resistance is turned off.

Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2010, 03:42:10 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Did any one see this one?


http://phet.colorado.edu/sims/projectile-motion/projectile-motion_en.html



Quote
A person with knowledge of the owners' discussions said the league "will continue to be open to contraction" as a possible mechanism for restoring the league to profitability.


I am a fan of this as well.  

  Pretty interesting web page, but probably not the link you meant to put in your post.


Yes it is.


My fault.  That's what my students are going to be using in class Monday.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/14168647/nba-owners-float-contraction-along-with-huge-pay-cuts

  Judging by the numbers, I'd say my first attempt (75 degrees, 1800 m/s) achieved escape velocity.

So it took about 354.8 seconds to land?  (just under 6 minutes)

  Darn, you're right. Time to speed things up a bit.

Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2010, 03:45:42 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I don't care about the amount.

I hate the Guarantee part.  

I am still a big fan of the NFL model where only the signing bonus is guaranteed allowing teams to waive players that are not playing up to the level they are being payed at.  

As for the big salaries being thrown around, I have not doubt that the player salary cut was going on in these owners heads when they threw out the offers.

  I'm not necessarily a huge fan of non-guaranteed contracts. If they come with a big bonus, that's fine. Otherwise, if the team can cancel the contract whenever they want, why can't the player?

This is my philosophy, and why I hate people getting so uptight over NFL players holding out.  If they can be cut at will, they should be able to quit at will.  Of course this would lead to all sorts of problems during the season, but pre-season?  They've got every right to try and get as much money as they can, because the only guaranteed paycheck is usually the signing bonus.

In the NBA I'd like to see a compromise - maybe half-guaranteed contracts.  You can cut a guy at will, but you're still paying him half his remaining contract, and it stays on your cap.  Gives teams the flexibility to save money and chemistry by cutting guys, but they're still partly on the hook for signing guys to terrible contracts.

Lots of people make this argument, and I don't understand it.  No owner is breaking any contract.  Rather, a typical contract says:

"I, owner, will pay you X amount of dollars, guaranteed, to play for me for the next ____ years.  In addition, for every year that you're still with the team, I will pay you Y amount of dollars, at the rate schedule attached."

The player gets the benefit of his bargain in guaranteed money.  He knows going in that he has no right or entitlement to the non-guaranteed money.

On the other hand, you have a player saying:

"I have a valid an enforceable contract, where I was paid X dollars to play for the team for the next ___ years.  They're also given me Y dollars to play annually, as we agreed.  I knew that the contract was non-guaranteed.  Despite the owners doing absolutely everything they promised me, I'm going to hold out and attempt to renegotiate my contract, because I made a bad deal".

When owners cut players, everyone is getting the benefit of their agreed-upon scenario.  When players on existing contracts hold out, they're breaching their contracts, and not allowing the owners to get the benefit of the bargain.

In other words, its only the owners, and not the hold-outs, that are playing by the rules.  


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Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2010, 03:51:04 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I don't care about the amount.

I hate the Guarantee part.  

I am still a big fan of the NFL model where only the signing bonus is guaranteed allowing teams to waive players that are not playing up to the level they are being payed at.  

As for the big salaries being thrown around, I have not doubt that the player salary cut was going on in these owners heads when they threw out the offers.

  I'm not necessarily a huge fan of non-guaranteed contracts. If they come with a big bonus, that's fine. Otherwise, if the team can cancel the contract whenever they want, why can't the player?

This is my philosophy, and why I hate people getting so uptight over NFL players holding out.  If they can be cut at will, they should be able to quit at will.  Of course this would lead to all sorts of problems during the season, but pre-season?  They've got every right to try and get as much money as they can, because the only guaranteed paycheck is usually the signing bonus.

In the NBA I'd like to see a compromise - maybe half-guaranteed contracts.  You can cut a guy at will, but you're still paying him half his remaining contract, and it stays on your cap.  Gives teams the flexibility to save money and chemistry by cutting guys, but they're still partly on the hook for signing guys to terrible contracts.

Lots of people make this argument, and I don't understand it.

  Lots of people aren't lawyers, and have never really thought about how these contracts are written. Thanks for the insight.

Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2010, 04:09:23 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Did any one see this one?


http://phet.colorado.edu/sims/projectile-motion/projectile-motion_en.html



Quote
A person with knowledge of the owners' discussions said the league "will continue to be open to contraction" as a possible mechanism for restoring the league to profitability.


I am a fan of this as well.  

  Pretty interesting web page, but probably not the link you meant to put in your post.


Yes it is.


My fault.  That's what my students are going to be using in class Monday.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/14168647/nba-owners-float-contraction-along-with-huge-pay-cuts

  Judging by the numbers, I'd say my first attempt (75 degrees, 1800 m/s) achieved escape velocity.

So it took about 354.8 seconds to land?  (just under 6 minutes)

  Darn, you're right. Time to speed things up a bit.


  I upped it to 18000 m/s, which will hopefully do the trick.

  By the way, it seems to have a cutoff of 300000000 m/s, slightly faster than the speed of light. Is the elapsed time with respect to the cannon, or the projectile? Because, at those speeds, it could matter.

  Oh, to be a student again.

Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2010, 04:11:24 PM »

Online Moranis

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Did any one see this one?


http://phet.colorado.edu/sims/projectile-motion/projectile-motion_en.html



Quote
A person with knowledge of the owners' discussions said the league "will continue to be open to contraction" as a possible mechanism for restoring the league to profitability.


I am a fan of this as well.  

  Pretty interesting web page, but probably not the link you meant to put in your post.


Yes it is.


My fault.  That's what my students are going to be using in class Monday.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/14168647/nba-owners-float-contraction-along-with-huge-pay-cuts
80 degrees, 21.8 m/s, 2 kg mass, .1 m diameter = bullseye
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2010, 04:16:01 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I don't care about the amount.

I hate the Guarantee part. 

I am still a big fan of the NFL model where only the signing bonus is guaranteed allowing teams to waive players that are not playing up to the level they are being payed at. 

As for the big salaries being thrown around, I have not doubt that the player salary cut was going on in these owners heads when they threw out the offers.

  I'm not necessarily a huge fan of non-guaranteed contracts. If they come with a big bonus, that's fine. Otherwise, if the team can cancel the contract whenever they want, why can't the player?

This is my philosophy, and why I hate people getting so uptight over NFL players holding out.  If they can be cut at will, they should be able to quit at will.  Of course this would lead to all sorts of problems during the season, but pre-season?  They've got every right to try and get as much money as they can, because the only guaranteed paycheck is usually the signing bonus.

In the NBA I'd like to see a compromise - maybe half-guaranteed contracts.  You can cut a guy at will, but you're still paying him half his remaining contract, and it stays on your cap.  Gives teams the flexibility to save money and chemistry by cutting guys, but they're still partly on the hook for signing guys to terrible contracts.

Lots of people make this argument, and I don't understand it.

I'm sure you're right from a legal perspective.  I'm saying that they seem equivalent to me, at least before the season starts.  Most at-will employment in other fields is symmetrical as far as I know (you can be fired or quit at any time without cause), whether there's a signing bonus involved or not.  I'm not sure what's different about the NFL's setup, but I'm sure it's not illegal to do things their way.

Probably doesn't hurt that I don't care much for the NFL either.  Football season starting gets me excited that basketball season isn't too far away.

Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2010, 04:16:53 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I don't care about the amount.

I hate the Guarantee part.  

I am still a big fan of the NFL model where only the signing bonus is guaranteed allowing teams to waive players that are not playing up to the level they are being payed at.  

As for the big salaries being thrown around, I have not doubt that the player salary cut was going on in these owners heads when they threw out the offers.

  I'm not necessarily a huge fan of non-guaranteed contracts. If they come with a big bonus, that's fine. Otherwise, if the team can cancel the contract whenever they want, why can't the player?

This is my philosophy, and why I hate people getting so uptight over NFL players holding out.  If they can be cut at will, they should be able to quit at will.  Of course this would lead to all sorts of problems during the season, but pre-season?  They've got every right to try and get as much money as they can, because the only guaranteed paycheck is usually the signing bonus.

In the NBA I'd like to see a compromise - maybe half-guaranteed contracts.  You can cut a guy at will, but you're still paying him half his remaining contract, and it stays on your cap.  Gives teams the flexibility to save money and chemistry by cutting guys, but they're still partly on the hook for signing guys to terrible contracts.

Lots of people make this argument, and I don't understand it.  No owner is breaking any contract.  Rather, a typical contract says:

"I, owner, will pay you X amount of dollars, guaranteed, to play for me for the next ____ years.  In addition, for every year that you're still with the team, I will pay you Y amount of dollars, at the rate schedule attached."

The player gets the benefit of his bargain in guaranteed money.  He knows going in that he has no right or entitlement to the non-guaranteed money.

On the other hand, you have a player saying:

"I have a valid an enforceable contract, where I was paid X dollars to play for the team for the next ___ years.  They're also given me Y dollars to play annually, as we agreed.  I knew that the contract was non-guaranteed.  Despite the owners doing absolutely everything they promised me, I'm going to hold out and attempt to renegotiate my contract, because I made a bad deal".

When owners cut players, everyone is getting the benefit of their agreed-upon scenario.  When players on existing contracts hold out, they're breaching their contracts, and not allowing the owners to get the benefit of the bargain.

In other words, its only the owners, and not the hold-outs, that are playing by the rules.  
Football player careers are too short for them to not accept whatever they can get early on. Rookies also don't have much choice but to take what the going rate is for their position since they cannot offer their services to a higher bidder. Their vulnerable position often ends up putting them under the thumb of the owners.

Since careers are so short, they need to try to get paid once they prove their elite status.

Another problem is players too often get paid by potential (draft position), wasting money that should go to players once they prove their worth. With average career so short in the NFL, this problem is more disturbing to me than in the NBA.

It is hard to blame players under their initial contracts for not being satisfied because the rules were set by players already in the league, not players coming into the league.

Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2010, 04:19:39 PM »

Online Moranis

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I'm all for contraction

Get rid of Grizzles and Raptors.  Do contraction draft based on season record (worst team first) and teams must honor the contract of the player they sign (if they elect to take anyone).  Allow teams to go over the cap to take on a player, but with caveat if they do they can't trade that player for one year.

Cut the league back to 28 and go for 4 7 team divisions.  Add Atlanta, Washington, and Charlotte to the Atlantic (minus Toronto) and send Miami and Orlando to the Central.  And out west, add Minnesota, Oklahoma, and Denver to the Southwest (minus memphis) and Utah and Portland to Pacific.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

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Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
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Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2010, 04:24:46 PM »

Offline cons

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contraction is really long overdue. doubt it will actually happen though.

Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2010, 04:27:44 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I'm all for contraction

Get rid of Grizzles and Raptors.  Do contraction draft based on season record (worst team first) and teams must honor the contract of the player they sign (if they elect to take anyone).  Allow teams to go over the cap to take on a player, but with caveat if they do they can't trade that player for one year.

Cut the league back to 28 and go for 4 7 team divisions.  Add Atlanta, Washington, and Charlotte to the Atlantic (minus Toronto) and send Miami and Orlando to the Central.  And out west, add Minnesota, Oklahoma, and Denver to the Southwest (minus memphis) and Utah and Portland to Pacific.

  Are those the worst teams in terms of fan support? I'd think Atlanta and Detroit (at least) would give them a run for their money.

  When's the last time they had contraction in the nba? I'm curious about what would happen to the contracts of the players.

Re: Player Salary Cuts
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2010, 04:44:03 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I'm all for contraction

Get rid of Grizzles and Raptors.  Do contraction draft based on season record (worst team first) and teams must honor the contract of the player they sign (if they elect to take anyone).  Allow teams to go over the cap to take on a player, but with caveat if they do they can't trade that player for one year.

Cut the league back to 28 and go for 4 7 team divisions.  Add Atlanta, Washington, and Charlotte to the Atlantic (minus Toronto) and send Miami and Orlando to the Central.  And out west, add Minnesota, Oklahoma, and Denver to the Southwest (minus memphis) and Utah and Portland to Pacific.

  Are those the worst teams in terms of fan support? I'd think Atlanta and Detroit (at least) would give them a run for their money.

  When's the last time they had contraction in the nba? I'm curious about what would happen to the contracts of the players.
During the ABA merger most of the franchises folded.