Why are Kobe's accomplishments seen to be better than Shaq's?

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I'm kind of annoyed at this. Kobe is, by many people, seen as the best player of the decade. Now while I don't deny that he's a great player, it's clear that Shaq won the first three championships for him. I occasionally visit Lakers forums and talk to their fans (ughh), and I'm tired of all the Kobe homers out there. Looking realistically, Shaq has 4 championships and Kobe has 2. How can you dare to argue with that?

No matter how good Wade is, he isn't winning his 'ship without Shaq. I've never seen a force more dominant than Shaq in his prime, in my LIFE. I also rate Duncan higher, but people disagree with this, and maybe it's debatable. But can someone tell me why people continue to inflate this guy's accomplishments?

[Roy H.]

Shaq was definitely the more dominant player on those early 2000s Lakers teams.  In his prime, I definitely have Shaq ranked higher, and significantly so.

I think part of the perception is 1) Kobe has been more successful lately; 2) Shaq hasn't necessarily aged gracefully, bouncing around from team to team; 3) the Lakers get more publicity than other teams; 4) Kobe has made three Finals in a row without Shaq, something Shaq hasn't been able to do.

[GreenFaith1819]

Well, another part of the Kobe Lovefest right now is that Shaq is seen as a betrayer - He supposedly left LA on bad terms many years ago, speaking badly towards ownership there because he wanted more money than what they wanted to offer him. He allegedly showed up out of shape in his latter years in LA, too.

The out of shape thing confuses me, because even if he was out of reqs he was still probably the most dominant Center back then.

Shaq then went to MIA and won Ring #4 with DWade, which upset a lot of Laker fans, to say the least. Throw in his "Kobe-couldn't do it without me" video and this adds to the dislike for Shaq.

Now? Well he's with LA's mortal Enemies, us . While some Laker fans won't admit it, that upsets them to the point of no return. They even had a poll over there back when Shaq first signed with us (On Silver Screen and Roll) about Shaq signing in Boston, and about 10-15% of Laker fans voted to burn anything Green because of it. I'm betting that the % was higher than they wanted to admit.

I love it. Anything to get under Laker fans skin I'm all for it.

Dr. Buss doesn't help the issue, either. I read somewhere that he stated that THIS Laker team is his best one, totally disregarding Shaq, Magic, Kareem and Worthy..........

I can't judge Laker fans, though. We've never had a superstar leave town like that, to my memory. LA could've won 2-3 more banners if Management and Shaq could've worked it out.

But anyway most of the points I listed is why IMO some Laker fans choose to attempt to write Shaq out of the History Books. Some feel oblivious towards him, despite his accomplishments.

The interesting thing is that Shaquille O'Neal's Book is not done, I don't think. He still has some chapters to add to it, with the help of The Celtics.

And - Deep in the recesses of Laker Fans Minds? A potential Boston-LA Finals in 2010-11. I believe it is Shaq's ultimate goal to beat LA on the big stage like this as part of a timeless rivalry - except he's wearing Green. Imagine him getting us Banner 18 and getting his 5th ring - to match Kobe.

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I think Shaq's dominance early on, in Orlando, is pretty much completely forgotten, while Kobe's early success was as a Laker, so it still "counts" if you will...or is remembered.

The Shaq/Kobe fakers really were built around Shaq in the pivot, and he surely earned those MVP's, over Kobe at the time.  It was Shaq's peak, but Kobe was coming into his...

Ever since, Shaq has been getting older while Kobe has been in his prime.  The years tend to be kinder to wings who can shoot than to very, very big guys, so Kobe's "prime" can be expected to be longer than Shaq's...

The real amazing thing is that even the captain of the mind Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. himself, Phil Jackson, couldn't find a way to keep two of the best players ever to play their position happy and on the same team...perhaps that little book of his made things worse.  Surely it didn't help...

[GreenFaith1819]

I found this piece on ESPN to be some proof to me that the Kobe Lovefest is not all-inclusive over there. I found it quite funny, but with more than a bit of truth to it:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=martin/100813_scottie_pippen_best_sidekicks

Kobe ranks #5 all-time on this list. Funny that I found this buried in ESPN articles last month.

[aporel#18]

Co-b is still Robin... like it or not, the most consistent player in the Lakers is Gasol, who provides skills, rebounding, passing and double teams, making AndrewKareemWilt Bynum look a lot better than he really is.

Co-b could be replaced by LeQueen, and the Lakers would be unstoppable. It took a cheap shot from Artest to Ray Allen, an uglier cheap shot from Co-b to Perk, and the strangest officiating to keep the Celtics from winning that series.

Shaq was the main reason for his 4 rings, Co-b isn't. D-Fisher and Artest clutch shots and perimeter defense are as important as Co-b making impossible shots.

[Jon]

I think Shaq has been the better player throughout his career.  I think Kobe was definitely Pippen to Shaq's Jordan on those first three title teams and I think Kobe has gotten somewhat lucky the past two years with first Garnett's injury and then Perk's.  If neither happen, Kobe is likely sitting at 3 rings.  And before anyone brings up Bynum, I don't count his injury: he's been damaged goods his whole career so it comes with the territory.  With KG and Perk they were freak injuries to normally healthy players. 

[Redz]

Shaq's dominance always came as somewhat of an expected trait because of his physical stature combined with his athleticism.  What Kobe does looks a lot harder by comparison (and is prettier to watch).  Fair or not, a guy with a freakish body like Shaq will never get full credit.  He made it look a lot easier than it is - even with his freakish size.

[nba is the worst]

I think Shaq has been the better player throughout his career.  I think Kobe was definitely Pippen to Shaq's Jordan on those first three title teams and I think Kobe has gotten somewhat lucky the past two years with first Garnett's injury and then Perk's.  If neither happen, Kobe is likely sitting at 3 rings.  And before anyone brings up Bynum, I don't count his injury: he's been damaged goods his whole career so it comes with the territory.  With KG and Perk they were freak injuries to normally healthy players. 

Wow - ridiculous speculation tinged with homervision...

But quite typical - for many Celtics fans, "only Celtics' injuries matter"!

[nba is the worst]

Co-b is still Robin... like it or not, the most consistent player in the Lakers is Gasol, who provides skills, rebounding, passing and double teams, making AndrewKareemWilt Bynum look a lot better than he really is.

Co-b could be replaced by LeQueen, and the Lakers would be unstoppable. It took a cheap shot from Artest to Ray Allen, an uglier cheap shot from Co-b to Perk, and the strangest officiating to keep the Celtics from winning that series.

Shaq was the main reason for his 4 rings, Co-b isn't. D-Fisher and Artest clutch shots and perimeter defense are as important as Co-b making impossible shots.

Wow again - do you seriously believe Perk's injury was due to a "cheap shot from Co-b"?

[Redz]

Co-b is still Robin... like it or not, the most consistent player in the Lakers is Gasol, who provides skills, rebounding, passing and double teams, making AndrewKareemWilt Bynum look a lot better than he really is.

Co-b could be replaced by LeQueen, and the Lakers would be unstoppable. It took a cheap shot from Artest to Ray Allen, an uglier cheap shot from Co-b to Perk, and the strangest officiating to keep the Celtics from winning that series.

Shaq was the main reason for his 4 rings, Co-b isn't. D-Fisher and Artest clutch shots and perimeter defense are as important as Co-b making impossible shots.

Wow again - do you seriously believe Perk's injury was due to a "cheap shot from Co-b"?

ironically, just flipped over to NBA TV to see what was on just in time to Perk go down in Game 6.  Didn't look for any cheap shots, but don't remember seeing one.

[Jon]

I think Shaq has been the better player throughout his career.  I think Kobe was definitely Pippen to Shaq's Jordan on those first three title teams and I think Kobe has gotten somewhat lucky the past two years with first Garnett's injury and then Perk's.  If neither happen, Kobe is likely sitting at 3 rings.  And before anyone brings up Bynum, I don't count his injury: he's been damaged goods his whole career so it comes with the territory.  With KG and Perk they were freak injuries to normally healthy players. 

Wow - ridiculous speculation tinged with homervision...

But quite typical - for many Celtics fans, "only Celtics' injuries matter"!

Perhaps an exaggeration to some extent; however, as far as injuries matter, I wouldn't be saying that if it had been KG who went down in Game 6, or even Paul or Ray.  Just as I wouldn't use that as an excuse if Shaq or JO went down.  With their age, injuries come with the territory at this point. 

However, in '09 KG was in phenomenal shape and only just 33.  There was no reason to expect him to go down.  Similarly, at Perk's age, there was no reason to expect an injury.  With Bynum, it's different.  He's more or less started out his career as the next Danny Manning or Bill Walton.  It's tragic; however, it's also a hand they've been dealt from the start. 

And all that aside, as I was defending one Laker over another (and not Celtics), I'd say Kobe also got fantastically lucky courtesy of Mr. Chris Wallace.  While the C's were fortunate to get KG and Ray, they also gave up good young talent to get them (Jeff Green amongst others in the Ray deal and Big Al in the KG deal).  The Lakers just flat out took advantage of Chris Wallace's stupidity.  If Chris Wallace isn't in the league, Kobe has 3 titles. 

[soap07]

I think Kobe was definitely Pippen to Shaq's Jordan on those first three title teams and I think Kobe has gotten somewhat lucky the past two years with first Garnett's injury and then Perk's.  If neither happen, Kobe is likely sitting at 3 rings.  And before anyone brings up Bynum, I don't count his injury: he's been damaged goods his whole career so it comes with the territory.  With KG and Perk they were freak injuries to normally healthy players.

And all that aside, as I was defending one Laker over another (and not Celtics), I'd say Kobe also got fantastically lucky courtesy of Mr. Chris Wallace.  While the C's were fortunate to get KG and Ray, they also gave up good young talent to get them (Jeff Green amongst others in the Ray deal and Big Al in the KG deal).  The Lakers just flat out took advantage of Chris Wallace's stupidity.  If Chris Wallace isn't in the league, Kobe has 3 titles.

Take a look at Marc Gasol's play last year and make the case that, combined with the additional cap space Memphis gained and picks, Chris Wallace looks that stupid. It's not nearly as lopsided as people like to make it out to be. Marc Gasol is is a 25 year old big man who nearly put up 15-10 last season on 59%(!) shooting. Where were they going with Pau as their franchise player? Nowhere. People don't like to admit it - but Wallace, in hindsight, looks pretty good in that deal.

Truthfully, Wallace did better than Kevin McHale did in the KG deal.

[soap07]

Perhaps an exaggeration to some extent; however, as far as injuries matter, I wouldn't be saying that if it had been KG who went down in Game 6, or even Paul or Ray.  Just as I wouldn't use that as an excuse if Shaq or JO went down.  With their age, injuries come with the territory at this point. 

Also, in Game 7, with Perkins down, Rasheed more than made up for his absence. I don't see how the injury excuse can be used for last year's Finals. The Celtics blew a 13-point second half lead.

[soap07]

I think Shaq has been the better player throughout his career.  I think Kobe was definitely Pippen to Shaq's Jordan on those first three title teams and I think Kobe has gotten somewhat lucky the past two years with first Garnett's injury and then Perk's.

Do you believe that Kobe is the best player on the Lakers? If you do, then you would agree than for at least two of Kobe's rings, he has shown the ability to be the best player on a title team.