Defense wins championships?

[Dybdal]

Hey everyone got a subject topic i would love to discuss regarding one of the most fatal flaws to any collective of people talking on any subject and that is.

A "absolute statement" better known as a "absolute truth"

I've seen this becomming more and more aparent in the Basketball world in the last 4-5 years and more importantly here on Celticsblog (and thats something i care about)
Now why do i want to bring this up? well anything regarding being absolute is the biggest cancer to any form of discussion of any kind there is and without a healthy discussion this site's soul will die in time.

So, to get things started lets look at what "Absolute" means, here's the google definition of the word.

# perfect or complete or pure; "absolute loyalty"; "absolute silence"; "absolute truth"; "absolute alcohol"
# complete and without restriction or qualification; sometimes used informally as intensifiers; "absolute freedom"; "an absolute dimwit"; "a downright lie"; "out-and-out mayhem"; "an out-and-out lie"; "a rank outsider"; "many right-down vices"; "got the job through sheer persistence"; "sheer ...
# not limited by law; "an absolute monarch"
# expressing finality with no implication of possible change; "an absolute guarantee to respect the nation's authority"
# something that is conceived or that exists independently and not in relation to other things; something that does not depend on anything else and is beyond human control; something that is not relative; "no mortal being can influence the absolute"
# not capable of being violated or infringed; "infrangible human rights"

So with that in mind, a absolute truth/statement is a finality its an entity that cannot change within the person saying it and that kills every form of discussion.

So lets look at one of them.

"Defense wins championships"

This will most likely come as a surprise to people that i would challenge that statement after saying that well known mantra for what 3-4 years now? but is that statement truthfull?

No it isnt, because it goes against logic! a logic that Von Wafer stated in an interview a few days ago and was imediately attacked on this board for that statement.

"I think I’m an okay defender. The name of the game is putting more points up on the board than the other team.”

Now that got the attention of alot of posters on this board as a sign of him putting a higher priority on offense than defense but is he.... wrong? is his statement untruthfull? no it isnt because the winner of games is determained by offensive productivity.

We have become so accustomed to saying "defense wins championships" that we just take it as the holy word of basketball without thinking it though but on a logical plane that statement is utter nonsense and worst of all we all use it as a finality to any discussion that would challenge any notion that goes against defense.

A better statement would be "Defense, Halfcourt Offense, Leadership, A Good Coach and a Balanced Team wins championships"

Is this example really important? no it really isnt, i choose this instead of taking a concrete example of a poster using a absolute statement, to not make this into a mud throwing war, you are free to discuss my logic surronding the statement "Defense wins championships" but that is not the core point of this thread.

All i want to do with this thread is to remind people, you are here to discuss basketball with like minded people but that is impossible if you shut down your mind to other options and opinons than your own personal truths and statements with a finality to them does that, it kills any discussion as a natural defense mechanism of the brain but it can be avoided if we remind each other not to use them or point it out in a calm fashion to the person that has used them to reopen the discussion without it turning ugly.

Thats all from me for now! abit of a rant but there you go!

[kozlodoev]

That's about as useful as discussing whether the proverb "A bird in hand is better than two in the bush" is an absolute truth... jeez.

[Fafnir]

When was the last time a team that wasn't top 10 defensively even made the Finals?

[Roy Hobbs]

Obviously, defense isn't the only requirement for winning a championship.  However, time and time again, teams at or near the top of the league defensively win titles.

[BballTim]

Hey everyone got a subject topic i would love to discuss regarding one of the most fatal flaws to any collective of people talking on any subject and that is.

A "absolute statement" better known as a "absolute truth"

I've seen this becomming more and more aparent in the Basketball world in the last 4-5 years and more importantly here on Celticsblog (and thats something i care about)
Now why do i want to bring this up? well anything regarding being absolute is the biggest cancer to any form of discussion of any kind there is and without a healthy discussion this site's soul will die in time.

So, to get things started lets look at what "Absolute" means, here's the google definition of the word.

# perfect or complete or pure; "absolute loyalty"; "absolute silence"; "absolute truth"; "absolute alcohol"
# complete and without restriction or qualification; sometimes used informally as intensifiers; "absolute freedom"; "an absolute dimwit"; "a downright lie"; "out-and-out mayhem"; "an out-and-out lie"; "a rank outsider"; "many right-down vices"; "got the job through sheer persistence"; "sheer ...
# not limited by law; "an absolute monarch"
# expressing finality with no implication of possible change; "an absolute guarantee to respect the nation's authority"
# something that is conceived or that exists independently and not in relation to other things; something that does not depend on anything else and is beyond human control; something that is not relative; "no mortal being can influence the absolute"
# not capable of being violated or infringed; "infrangible human rights"

So with that in mind, a absolute truth/statement is a finality its an entity that cannot change within the person saying it and that kills every form of discussion.

So lets look at one of them.

"Defense wins championships"

This will most likely come as a surprise to people that i would challenge that statement after saying that well known mantra for what 3-4 years now? but is that statement truthfull?

No it isnt, because it goes against logic! a logic that Von Wafer stated in an interview a few days ago and was imediately attacked on this board for that statement.

"I think I’m an okay defender. The name of the game is putting more points up on the board than the other team.”

Now that got the attention of alot of posters on this board as a sign of him putting a higher priority on offense than defense but is he.... wrong? is his statement untruthfull? no it isnt because the winner of games is determained by offensive productivity.

We have become so accustomed to saying "defense wins championships" that we just take it as the holy word of basketball without thinking it though but on a logical plane that statement is utter nonsense and worst of all we all use it as a finality to any discussion that would challenge any notion that goes against defense.

A better statement would be "Defense, Halfcourt Offense, Leadership, A Good Coach and a Balanced Team wins championships"

Is this example really important? no it really isnt, i choose this instead of taking a concrete example of a poster using a absolute statement, to not make this into a mud throwing war, you are free to discuss my logic surronding the statement "Defense wins championships" but that is not the core point of this thread.

All i want to do with this thread is to remind people, you are here to discuss basketball with like minded people but that is impossible if you shut down your mind to other options and opinons than your own personal truths and statements with a finality to them does that, it kills any discussion as a natural defense mechanism of the brain but it can be avoided if we remind each other not to use them or point it out in a calm fashion to the person that has used them to reopen the discussion without it turning ugly.

Thats all from me for now! abit of a rant but there you go!

  I disagree that a significant number of people that get involved in these discussions are at all guilty of the kind of thinking (or the extremes of thinking) that you claim that they are.

[Fafnir]

Obviously, defense isn't the only requirement for winning a championship.  However, time and time again, teams at or near the top of the league defensively win titles.

Last time a team outside the top 10 defensive made the Finals was the Mavericks.

The last time a team won the title without a top 10 defense is the 00-01 Lakers. Who were injured and then caught fire only losing one game in the playoffs.

As Roy says year after year top defensive clubs are the ones doing damage in the playoffs.

[17wasEZ]

All i want to do with this thread is to remind people, you are here to discuss basketball with like minded people but that is impossible if you shut down your mind to other options and opinons than your own personal truths and statements with a finality to them does that, it kills any discussion as a natural defense mechanism of the brain but it can be avoided if we remind each other not to use them or point it out in a calm fashion to the person that has used them to reopen the discussion without it turning ugly.

Thats all from me for now! abit of a rant but there you go!

Whatever it is you want to say I don't want to hear it......... 

Nice post! I have to say I agree 100%! There are many people on the message boards that believe they have all of the answers and shoot down other people's ideas.  Now, I do realize the occasional "How come Danny just doesn't sign the best free agents available (as if DA tells these players what to do or they don't realize there is a salary cap) or trade Sheed's contract to _________ (team) for ___________ (insert superstar).

It's actually comical to see arguments/discussions going on between two people who are rooting for the same thing. An example would be Rondo.  Most of us love him and his game.  But, while some are willing to point out flaws, others will refer to them as haters.

Or, you'll get the ever popular "you just don't know basketball......"

[PosImpos]

Defense is required to win championships, but a truly great defensive team with an unreliable offense won't get it done.

We all learned that the hard way this year.

The Lakers, while a very solid defensive team, couldn't hold a candle to the Celtics' D when it was running at full steam this year.  The secret to the Lakers' success is that they play very solid defense while also having a fairly unstoppable offense. 

Even against the Celtics, it was impossible to stop the Lakers from finding a scoring groove for a whole game, because they simply have too much talent on the team - plus, they also earned themselves way more possessions through their rebounding.

At the end of the day, you need to be able to score more points than your opponent.  The Celtics couldn't hold leads when it mattered most because their offense was unreliable, especially in crunch time situations.  The fact that they came within minutes of the title just shows you how potent truly great defense can be. 

But in the end, truly great offense trumps truly great defense.

[nickagneta]

While there are many components to what makes a champion I think the three that prevail almost always in the NBA are defense, rebounding and health. Not saying you have to be the best defense, the best rebounding team, or the healthiest team. Just these are prerequisites to be very very good at to win it all in this league.


Everything else is negotiable in my book.

[LB3533]

The Celtics downfall was their offensive ineptitude in the playoffs....which played right into the Laker's strengths on defense.

Celtics' offense made the Lakers' defense that much better.

[BballTim]

Defense is required to win championships, but a truly great defensive team with an unreliable offense won't get it done.

We all learned that the hard way this year.

The Lakers, while a very solid defensive team, couldn't hold a candle to the Celtics' D when it was running at full steam this year.  The secret to the Lakers' success is that they play very solid defense while also having a fairly unstoppable offense. 

Even against the Celtics, it was impossible to stop the Lakers from finding a scoring groove for a whole game, because they simply have too much talent on the team - plus, they also earned themselves way more possessions through their rebounding.

At the end of the day, you need to be able to score more points than your opponent.  The Celtics couldn't hold leads when it mattered most because their offense was unreliable, especially in crunch time situations.  The fact that they came within minutes of the title just shows you how potent truly great defense can be. 

  If a team doesn't make it to the finals or gets to the finals and isn't really competitive, you can say they didn't win the title because of some fatal flaw. When you lose a starter to injury in game 6 of the finals and lose game 7 by 4 points then the only reason you lost is bad luck. And we only lost a late lead in one game of the finals. We were good enough to win the title despite our rebounding woes. We were good enough to win the title despite our scoring droughts. We were good enough to win the title despite Rondo's outside shooting. We just didn't.

[LilRip]

"defense wins championships" is more of a mantra. do people really take it as a truth? Coz i've always maintained that "offense and defense wins championships". The game is played on both ends of the floor.

i do agree though with what someone said earlier. As soon as you point out a Celtics' player's flaw(s), you're viewed as a hater. Pretty annoying.



- LilRip

[ACF]

Well, if we had held on to more rebounds on the defensive end in game 7, we'd be raising Banner 18 on Oct. 26. The Lakers' offensive boards truly killed us. So, yeah, defense does win championships. But I get the point.

[PosImpos]

Defense is required to win championships, but a truly great defensive team with an unreliable offense won't get it done.

We all learned that the hard way this year.

The Lakers, while a very solid defensive team, couldn't hold a candle to the Celtics' D when it was running at full steam this year.  The secret to the Lakers' success is that they play very solid defense while also having a fairly unstoppable offense. 

Even against the Celtics, it was impossible to stop the Lakers from finding a scoring groove for a whole game, because they simply have too much talent on the team - plus, they also earned themselves way more possessions through their rebounding.

At the end of the day, you need to be able to score more points than your opponent.  The Celtics couldn't hold leads when it mattered most because their offense was unreliable, especially in crunch time situations.  The fact that they came within minutes of the title just shows you how potent truly great defense can be. 

  If a team doesn't make it to the finals or gets to the finals and isn't really competitive, you can say they didn't win the title because of some fatal flaw. When you lose a starter to injury in game 6 of the finals and lose game 7 by 4 points then the only reason you lost is bad luck. And we only lost a late lead in one game of the finals. We were good enough to win the title despite our rebounding woes. We were good enough to win the title despite our scoring droughts. We were good enough to win the title despite Rondo's outside shooting. We just didn't.

The only team I can say for sure was good enough to win it all this year was the Lakers, and they had an unstoppable (though not explosive) offense paired with very solid defense.

The Celtics came close, but they lost because they couldn't rebound and they couldn't score in crunch time, causing them to lose leads.  The first of those things could be attributed to Perkins' absence.  The second couldn't - the C's were plagued by 4th quarter collapses and stagnant offense all year long, and ultimately it was the thing that did them in.

[mgent]

Defense is required to win championships, but a truly great defensive team with an unreliable offense won't get it done.

We all learned that the hard way this year.

The Lakers, while a very solid defensive team, couldn't hold a candle to the Celtics' D when it was running at full steam this year.  The secret to the Lakers' success is that they play very solid defense while also having a fairly unstoppable offense. 

Even against the Celtics, it was impossible to stop the Lakers from finding a scoring groove for a whole game, because they simply have too much talent on the team - plus, they also earned themselves way more possessions through their rebounding.

At the end of the day, you need to be able to score more points than your opponent.  The Celtics couldn't hold leads when it mattered most because their offense was unreliable, especially in crunch time situations.  The fact that they came within minutes of the title just shows you how potent truly great defense can be. 

  If a team doesn't make it to the finals or gets to the finals and isn't really competitive, you can say they didn't win the title because of some fatal flaw. When you lose a starter to injury in game 6 of the finals and lose game 7 by 4 points then the only reason you lost is bad luck. And we only lost a late lead in one game of the finals. We were good enough to win the title despite our rebounding woes. We were good enough to win the title despite our scoring droughts. We were good enough to win the title despite Rondo's outside shooting. We just didn't.

The only team I can say for sure was good enough to win it all this year was the Lakers, and they had an unstoppable (though not explosive) offense paired with very solid defense.

The Celtics came close, but they lost because they couldn't rebound and they couldn't score in crunch time, causing them to lose leads.  The first of those things could be attributed to Perkins' absence.  The second couldn't - the C's were plagued by 4th quarter collapses and stagnant offense all year long, and ultimately it was the thing that did them in.

You sure it wasn't all the bs fouls?