Shaq and Garnett...I'll be the one to say it

[nickagneta]

I've only read the last 2 pages or so of this thread.

There is an interesting tone here.

Nick - are you serious about Anderson Varejao being the best defensive PF?

And with the comments I've seen on KG here - do we still believe we can contend for Banner 18 this year?

I do.

Yes I am serious. I think defensively, he is the best power forward in the league.

He's a great low post defender against low post power forwards. He has the quickness and lateral speed to defender the small faster perimeter power forwards. He is an excellent help defender and is always willing to sacrifice his body to take a charge and even create some charges that aren't there. He can also guard three positions at above average levels.

He's also an excellent defensive rebounder and good overall rebounder. He has great length and good hands so gets his hands on a lot of deflections and will give you a steal and block per game.

So yeah, with the aging games of Duncan(who now plays more center) and KG, on a game in and game out basis, Anderson Varejao is the best defensive power forward in the league.

KG came back defensively in the Playoffs but he basically took off the entire regular season to have the energy to play that way in the playoffs. Could it be he was recovering the whole year? Sure that was part of it. But he also coasted defensively for parts of last season as well. That was fairly evident in every player in the team last regular season and KG is not immune to that criticism.

So if Boston did a trade last Febuary - KG for Varejao, straight up - do you think we would've made it to LA?

No because KG is much better offensively than Varejao is. He's a better outside shooter that spreads the floor. He's a better low post player when he decides to post up. He is a better free throw shooter. He's a better clutch player all around and a way better leader of men.

But defensively Varejao is better.

Well, I think Varejao is one of the better PF defenders, but not better than KG.

He was unable to slow KG down in the CLE series. I think KG and Rondo were the best players overall in that series.

Do you believe that Andy would've done better defensively VS Beasely - Jamison - Lewis - Gasol?

Let's be fair here GF. Varejao played mostly backup center in that series and KG was matched up against Antawn Jamison and JJ Hickson for most of that series and very seldom was matched up versus Anderson Varejao because Mike Brown buried his real back up center Zydrunas Ilgauskas on the bench until the end of the series

[GreenFaith1819]

I've only read the last 2 pages or so of this thread.

There is an interesting tone here.

Nick - are you serious about Anderson Varejao being the best defensive PF?

And with the comments I've seen on KG here - do we still believe we can contend for Banner 18 this year?

I do.

Yes I am serious. I think defensively, he is the best power forward in the league.

He's a great low post defender against low post power forwards. He has the quickness and lateral speed to defender the small faster perimeter power forwards. He is an excellent help defender and is always willing to sacrifice his body to take a charge and even create some charges that aren't there. He can also guard three positions at above average levels.

He's also an excellent defensive rebounder and good overall rebounder. He has great length and good hands so gets his hands on a lot of deflections and will give you a steal and block per game.

So yeah, with the aging games of Duncan(who now plays more center) and KG, on a game in and game out basis, Anderson Varejao is the best defensive power forward in the league.

KG came back defensively in the Playoffs but he basically took off the entire regular season to have the energy to play that way in the playoffs. Could it be he was recovering the whole year? Sure that was part of it. But he also coasted defensively for parts of last season as well. That was fairly evident in every player in the team last regular season and KG is not immune to that criticism.

So if Boston did a trade last Febuary - KG for Varejao, straight up - do you think we would've made it to LA?

No because KG is much better offensively than Varejao is. He's a better outside shooter that spreads the floor. He's a better low post player when he decides to post up. He is a better free throw shooter. He's a better clutch player all around and a way better leader of men.

But defensively Varejao is better.

Well, I think Varejao is one of the better PF defenders, but not better than KG.

He was unable to slow KG down in the CLE series. I think KG and Rondo were the best players overall in that series.

Do you believe that Andy would've done better defensively VS Beasely - Jamison - Lewis - Gasol?

Let's be fair here GF. Varejao played mostly backup center in that series and KG was matched up against Antawn Jamison and JJ Hickson for most of that series and very seldom was matched up versus Anderson Varejao because Mike Brown buried his real back up center Zydrunas Ilgauskas on the bench until the end of the series

You know, I thought about the bench issue right after I hit the "Post" button - you make a good point.

I'd have to research the game logs of CLE and their opponents, though. V is definitely one of those players I can't stand, but would absolutely love to have him in Green.

I know that V plays both PF and C positions. In the CHI series, I don't recall how often Noah was matched up against V, but Noah had a really productive series against CLE, even though they lost.

I just don't know if he is in fact a better defender than KG, even at KG's age right now. I'd have to research more how CLE opponents played against him last season.

[BballTim]

age aside... this is KG's 16th year.   Ewing in his 16th year averaged 9 and 7.  That's about what i expect from washed up KG this year.

  Good luck with that.

[GreenFaith1819]

age aside... this is KG's 16th year.   Ewing in his 16th year averaged 9 and 7.  That's about what i expect from washed up KG this year.

  Good luck with that.

I'd mark KG down for 13-15 pts, 7 rebs, 1.2 blocks and 2-3 assists, myself, in his 16th year.

[celticsclay]

Oh and add an all star appearance. I think he can beat out Rupaul in the fan voting. Not to mention I think Bosh's stats will be playing alongside wade and lequeen

[GreenFaith1819]

Oh and add an all star appearance. I think he can beat out Rupaul in the fan voting. Not to mention I think Bosh's stats will be playing alongside wade and lequeen

Good Point. Ru won't manage 24 and 10 like he did last year.

[BballTim]

I've only read the last 2 pages or so of this thread.

There is an interesting tone here.

Nick - are you serious about Anderson Varejao being the best defensive PF?

And with the comments I've seen on KG here - do we still believe we can contend for Banner 18 this year?

I do.

Yes I am serious. I think defensively, he is the best power forward in the league.

He's a great low post defender against low post power forwards. He has the quickness and lateral speed to defender the small faster perimeter power forwards. He is an excellent help defender and is always willing to sacrifice his body to take a charge and even create some charges that aren't there. He can also guard three positions at above average levels.

He's also an excellent defensive rebounder and good overall rebounder. He has great length and good hands so gets his hands on a lot of deflections and will give you a steal and block per game.

So yeah, with the aging games of Duncan(who now plays more center) and KG, on a game in and game out basis, Anderson Varejao is the best defensive power forward in the league.

KG came back defensively in the Playoffs but he basically took off the entire regular season to have the energy to play that way in the playoffs. Could it be he was recovering the whole year? Sure that was part of it. But he also coasted defensively for parts of last season as well. That was fairly evident in every player in the team last regular season and KG is not immune to that criticism.

  KG's opponents (compared to AV as a pf) had a lower shooting percentage, took fewer free throws and had fewer assists. KG had a better defensive rebounding rate, blocked slightly more shots and committed fewer fouls while doing that. And this was KG struggling with knee problems for most of the year.

[GreenFaith1819]

Plus, I think KG coasted a lot last season was because, well, he was limping. I hated to see him limp.

He lost that limp in the playoffs. And we won't see it this season, either. He's recovered, now.

I also believe that both J.O and Shaq will free him up from playing in the post a lot, especially with Shaq in the game.

I'm not fooling myself to think KG will put up 20 and 10 numbers (even though I believe he'll get a few of those, too), but he is far from done. Getting older and slower due to age is one thing, but KG's fire is too much to get extinguished, yet.

[BballTim]

Few things

- Kevin Garnett is no longer the best defensive PF in the game. That is Anderson Varejao.

- Shaq will not be starting as has been made clear by the Celtics announcement of Shaq agreeing to a contract and that he has agreed to coming off the bench for the first time in his career

- Just because KG and Shaq can be dominant for very short periods doesn't translate to 48 minutes of good things happening for the Boston Celtics. What has to be taken into consideration is what can be expected of them in the long term and on the average, not what they might be able to do once a week or once every two weeks for half a game or so. yes it will be entertaining watching them when they are "every bit as good once as they ever were" but all that gives us is a glimpse of what could have been once upon a time and not what we should expect to get regularly.

- KG playing 30 minutes and being healthy the whole year is good for the Celtics. Shaq playing 15-20 minutes a night as a back up center and staying healthy the entire year is a good thing for the Celtics. But let's keep our expectations of what to expect from these two former greats and future Hall of Famers grounded. Yes there will be night, probably few and far between when they amaze us but more realistically, they will be just to cogs in a greater machine that play their parts to make the whole better.

a healthy kg is the best defensive pf in the nba

I agree with nick on this. KG's version of healthy is still a battered vet healthy. Especially over the course of a season.

When someone, for example, has no more cartilage in their knee, that is who they are. That is them being healthy. KG has lost a lot of game.

Hopefully, as a team, we can still be good enough. It will be tough.

  Funny, I kept reading that KG wasn't going to show much physical improvement when he was limping up and down the court last winter.

[moiso]

I've only read the last 2 pages or so of this thread.

There is an interesting tone here.

Nick - are you serious about Anderson Varejao being the best defensive PF?

And with the comments I've seen on KG here - do we still believe we can contend for Banner 18 this year?

I do.

Yes I am serious. I think defensively, he is the best power forward in the league.

He's a great low post defender against low post power forwards. He has the quickness and lateral speed to defender the small faster perimeter power forwards. He is an excellent help defender and is always willing to sacrifice his body to take a charge and even create some charges that aren't there. He can also guard three positions at above average levels.

He's also an excellent defensive rebounder and good overall rebounder. He has great length and good hands so gets his hands on a lot of deflections and will give you a steal and block per game.

So yeah, with the aging games of Duncan(who now plays more center) and KG, on a game in and game out basis, Anderson Varejao is the best defensive power forward in the league.

KG came back defensively in the Playoffs but he basically took off the entire regular season to have the energy to play that way in the playoffs. Could it be he was recovering the whole year? Sure that was part of it. But he also coasted defensively for parts of last season as well. That was fairly evident in every player in the team last regular season and KG is not immune to that criticism.

So if Boston did a trade last Febuary - KG for Varejao, straight up - do you think we would've made it to LA?

No because KG is much better offensively than Varejao is. He's a better outside shooter that spreads the floor. He's a better low post player when he decides to post up. He is a better free throw shooter. He's a better clutch player all around and a way better leader of men.

But defensively Varejao is better.

Well, I think Varejao is one of the better PF defenders, but not better than KG.

He was unable to slow KG down in the CLE series. I think KG and Rondo were the best players overall in that series.

Do you believe that Andy would've done better defensively VS Beasely - Jamison - Lewis - Gasol?

Let's be fair here GF. Varejao played mostly backup center in that series and KG was matched up against Antawn Jamison and JJ Hickson for most of that series and very seldom was matched up versus Anderson Varejao because Mike Brown buried his real back up center Zydrunas Ilgauskas on the bench until the end of the series

My two cents on this debate- Varejao is a better defender than KG now.  He is an impact defender who really forces the issue and makes plays.  His rotations are great, he is one of the best at drawing charges(and flopping for calls), and he seems to get every freaking loose ball.  KG is still very good, but he's not in Varejao's league anymore.

[drza44]

:Shrugs: I don't think their impacts are measured only in points and rebounds.  For example, in last year's playoffs:

KG scored 16.2 points on 49.5% FG with 1.5 TOs per 36 minutes. 

Meanwhile, his primary defensive assignments (Beasley, Jamison, Lewis, and Gasol) averaged 9 points on 36% FG with 2.3 TOs per 36 minutes when he was guarding them (523 total minutes). 

Those same 4 guys averaged 20.6 points on 53.4% FG with 1.5 TOs per 36 minutes against Boston when KG wasn't on them (234 minutes). And they averaged 18.2 points on 53.7% FG and 1.8 TOs per 36 minutes in the 2010 postseason when they weren't playing Boston.

In other words, KG took 4 guys that scored a lot on great percentages against other teams (and even against the Celtics when he was on the bench) and shut them out of the scoreboards.

And that's not even mentioning KG's team defensive impact, where the 2010 Celtics postseason defense with KG suddenly looked eerily similar to the 2008 Celtics postseason defense and absolutely nothing like 2009 Celtics defense without him.

Similarly, I don't expect Shaq to suddenly come in here and average 20 and 10 again.  But if he starts, I expect that the team offense will suddenly start working better.  Efficiency will be up, scoring will be up, and scoring droughts on the first unit will decrease.  Now it may be Rondo or Pierce that gets the credit for this because they likely will lead the team in scoring and assists again.  But the underlying difference from years past will be the threat of 2 bigs as skilled and still difficult to defend as KG and Shaq on one frontline.

I could care less what their averages are, and I haven't even spent much ink on Jermaine who I was also pretty excited about before Shaq signed.  But I think the 2010-11 Celtics are going to surprise a lot of people this year, and I'm counting down the days until the season starts and I can watch it pan out.

And the scoring of the other team will be remarkably up because every team in the league knows to play the pick and role versus Shaq when he is on the floor because he can't guard it.

It works both ways with Shaq. And if your defense is that playing with the starters will cover up his deficiencies, is that what you really want? Do you want your starters playing extra hard trying to cover up the defensive deficiencies of their starting center all year long so that they are more tired to start the playoffs than they would have been if they had a competent defensive center playing.

Listen, I'm all for positivity but I also like to stay grounded in expectations. Given we lost our two centers, picking up the O'Neals are a great find for Danny and probably puts us right back into the discussion for best teams in the league. But neither player is what they once were and neither is a game changer any longer. Honestly, I wouldn't trade either one of them straight up for a healthy Perkins.

So our first team is probably going to be as good as they were with a healthy Perk in the lineup and our big man depth off the bench will be improved if Perk can come back and give the team any meaningful minutes. But this team is really not appreciably better or worse than the one that just finished playing in June. They do, however, have to rely heavily on 4 starters that are going to be 33, 34, 35 and either 32 or 38 years old. Not exactly a recipe for success when none of those players are any longer a top 25 player in the league.

Well, it's clear that we just fundamentally disagree on several topics.  For one, I've never (and still don't) think Perk is an impact player.  I think he's a good defensive role player, and that he has played his role well for this team.  But I think his impact is very replaceable.  If I had a choice of signing any of the 3 for the next 5 years I'd take Perk because of age.  But for one season, I think either O'Neal will be better for this team.  So having both of them, along with the possibility of adding Perk for the stretch run, is icing on the cake.

For two, on this team I think that Shaq (if he starts) would mean more positive to the offense than negative to the defense.  I believe that Perk's biggest contribution to the defense is his ability to defend big/strong post options 1-on-1 and clog the paint.  Shaq can do that, and may even do it better than Perk against the huge centers like Bogut, Yao, Oden, or Bynum.  Perk is more mobile against the P&R than Shaq, but I don't think that'll prove to be as big of a deal as you seem to think.  

And it's not about the rest of the defense having to be super-human to make up for it either.  The Cavs defense was fine last year when Shaq played next to Varejao (about 100 points/100 possession, same as last year's Cs when KG and Perk played next to each other).  It was when Shaq played next to Hickson or Jamison that the Cavs defense suffered (about 110 points/100 possessions, according to the 5-man unit info on 82games.com).  If you pair Shaq with a mobile defensive PF in a strong defensive system, he's fine at that end.  And that's what we have in Boston.

Meanwhile, at the other end, a KG/Shaq pairing brings out the best in both of them as well as the best in the offensive unit as a whole.  5 strong scoring options, all of whom are very good passers at their position, all of whom having extremely diverse skill sets, has top-5 offense in the league potential.  Last year our offense was ranked 15th.  I think we'll see big dividends on that end, without missing much if anything on defense.

And the great thing about a prediction thread is, we're putting out there what we believe will happen.  And the actual evidence we'll be played out in front of us starting in 2 months.  So I just really don't get the sentiment that I should ground my expectations...my expectation is that this team will be better than people expect, in this particular thread because I think people are underestimating what KG (who's still firmly a top-25 player in the league) and either O'Neal can do and/or perhaps overestimating Perk.  I could be wrong.  I also could be right.  We'll all get to see soon.  

But didn't we learn anything from all of the optimism/pessimism you-don't-believe/you-aren't-realistic stuff from last season?  If you don't agree with my take can't we just agree to disagree, rather than already going down the pathway that my opinion is just unfounded "positivity" vs your more realistic, "grounded" view?  I believe that I have logical, observable, statistically-supportable reasons for my views.  Until proven otherwise, I'd say that's as grounded as what anyone else has to say around here.

[GreenFaith1819]

I've only read the last 2 pages or so of this thread.

There is an interesting tone here.

Nick - are you serious about Anderson Varejao being the best defensive PF?

And with the comments I've seen on KG here - do we still believe we can contend for Banner 18 this year?

I do.

Yes I am serious. I think defensively, he is the best power forward in the league.

He's a great low post defender against low post power forwards. He has the quickness and lateral speed to defender the small faster perimeter power forwards. He is an excellent help defender and is always willing to sacrifice his body to take a charge and even create some charges that aren't there. He can also guard three positions at above average levels.

He's also an excellent defensive rebounder and good overall rebounder. He has great length and good hands so gets his hands on a lot of deflections and will give you a steal and block per game.

So yeah, with the aging games of Duncan(who now plays more center) and KG, on a game in and game out basis, Anderson Varejao is the best defensive power forward in the league.

KG came back defensively in the Playoffs but he basically took off the entire regular season to have the energy to play that way in the playoffs. Could it be he was recovering the whole year? Sure that was part of it. But he also coasted defensively for parts of last season as well. That was fairly evident in every player in the team last regular season and KG is not immune to that criticism.

So if Boston did a trade last Febuary - KG for Varejao, straight up - do you think we would've made it to LA?

No because KG is much better offensively than Varejao is. He's a better outside shooter that spreads the floor. He's a better low post player when he decides to post up. He is a better free throw shooter. He's a better clutch player all around and a way better leader of men.

But defensively Varejao is better.

Well, I think Varejao is one of the better PF defenders, but not better than KG.

He was unable to slow KG down in the CLE series. I think KG and Rondo were the best players overall in that series.

Do you believe that Andy would've done better defensively VS Beasely - Jamison - Lewis - Gasol?

Let's be fair here GF. Varejao played mostly backup center in that series and KG was matched up against Antawn Jamison and JJ Hickson for most of that series and very seldom was matched up versus Anderson Varejao because Mike Brown buried his real back up center Zydrunas Ilgauskas on the bench until the end of the series

My two cents on this debate- Varejao is a better defender than KG now.  He is an impact defender who really forces the issue and makes plays.  His rotations are great, he is one of the best at drawing charges(and flopping for calls), and he seems to get every freaking loose ball.  KG is still very good, but he's not in Varejao's league anymore.

That's fine and all, but show me some proof? ESPN game logs, etc? I plan on doing the research on Varejao myself, but the schoolwork is time-consuming.

My gut feeling? I believe that I'll find, upon doing some research, that Varejao will probably rank in the top 3 PFs defensively, maybe lower.

But not higher than KG.

[LarBrd33]

KG's knees have been toast for two years.  Why do people think he's magically going to heal?  It's inane.  He's only getting worse. 

[drza44]

I've only read the last 2 pages or so of this thread.

There is an interesting tone here.

Nick - are you serious about Anderson Varejao being the best defensive PF?

And with the comments I've seen on KG here - do we still believe we can contend for Banner 18 this year?

I do.

Yes I am serious. I think defensively, he is the best power forward in the league.

He's a great low post defender against low post power forwards. He has the quickness and lateral speed to defender the small faster perimeter power forwards. He is an excellent help defender and is always willing to sacrifice his body to take a charge and even create some charges that aren't there. He can also guard three positions at above average levels.

He's also an excellent defensive rebounder and good overall rebounder. He has great length and good hands so gets his hands on a lot of deflections and will give you a steal and block per game.

So yeah, with the aging games of Duncan(who now plays more center) and KG, on a game in and game out basis, Anderson Varejao is the best defensive power forward in the league.

KG came back defensively in the Playoffs but he basically took off the entire regular season to have the energy to play that way in the playoffs. Could it be he was recovering the whole year? Sure that was part of it. But he also coasted defensively for parts of last season as well. That was fairly evident in every player in the team last regular season and KG is not immune to that criticism.

There are arguments to be made for Varejao's defense, but "KG coasted through the regular season and only closed the gap in the playoffs" isn't one of them, IMO.  They both posted very strong defensive numbers last year, but they were similar.  Both Hollinger (ESPN) and Kevin Pelton (Basketball Prospectus) had KG leading NBA power forwards in holding down his opponents' production in the regular season. Pelton's stat said KG held his opponents to 25% less production, which is a pretty big number (and larger than Varejao's).  And again, this was in the regular season where Varejao was supposedly making his mark and KG was coasting.

In the postseason it was no contest.  KG ratcheted up the defense to a level that I've never seen Varejao approach.  He used his length and quickness to erase several perimeter options, and also completely stifled the scoring of arguably the best offensive power forward in the league in the Finals.  He could (presumably) no longer match Gasol's rebounding, which obviously hurts, but he completely snuffed his ability to score efficiently when he was on him.  KG wasn't what he used to be, no, but that's not the standard.  He was still as good as Varejao during the season and MUCH better in the postseason.  

[GreenFaith1819]

KG's knees have been toast for two years.  Why do people think he's magically going to heal?  It's inane.  He's only getting worse. 

So LB - did KG take Steroids or something during the playoffs?

And you said "Toast for Two years"? Boston was cruising along in 2008-09, without a bench. KG looked really good, then came that Utah game.

It took KG basically all year to heal last year. He looked really good in the playoffs,though, and he didn't limp.

The man gets a ton of Courage Points from me for even playing on it. He could've taken the year off if he didn't care.

Why is there all of sudden the doom and gloom around here about KG?

We are still TWO months away from training camp, People.

Let's play the games first.

This stuff reminds me of how we were supposed to get slaughtered by CLE, then ORL was going to hammer us, then LA was going to beat us in 5 or 6....