Shaq and Garnett...I'll be the one to say it

[housecall]

Anderson V.is not even in the top 5 pf in the league...he does one thing well,annoy.

He's a top 5 defensive PF.

I said top 5 in the league(NBA)today...nothing was mentioned about defense only.Defense is only one side of the ball.Im well aware of his defensive skills.  

Well you were responding to this:

- Kevin Garnett is no longer the best defensive PF in the game. That is Anderson Varejao.

Which is why I corrected you, I see you went back and re-read the thread, hence your edit.

BTW I disagree with Nick, KG is still a better defender than AV. His rebounding is now inferior to AV's though, and his offense is getting closer to AV's as well.

Even though KG had his ups/downs during the regular season and im not making excuses for him either,i still feel he is better defensively than most pf in the league.His series aganist the Cavs in the playoffs were the last eyeball test we can compare to which player is better.KG avg.18.8pts/8.0boards compared to Varejeo's7.0pts./6.7boards.Their blocks were about even,neither average a full blk a game.The playoffs is where you make your mark.Varejeo had worst stats in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. 

[Neurotic Guy]

they are both pretty severely washed up.   LIke putting Toronto Hakeem with Sonics Ewing.

We shall see.  I'd liken Shaq more to David Robinson of 2002 or 2003, and I just think your flat way off the mark on KG.  Bug again, we'll see.

Come on... KG's 14 and 7 was about equal to Jermaine O'Neal last year (another washed up big man).   Those numbers are just going to dive more this year.  KG is old.

Shaq averaged 12 and 6 as a starter... getting bench minutes means he'll probably average 6 and 3 on this team.

I imagine KG will put up numbers equal to Ewing on the SOnics... while Shaq might put up Raptors Hakeem numbers.   

Hakeem w/ Toronto (01-02): 22 min. 7 pts/ 6 rebounds  Age: 39
Ewing w/ Seattle (00-01) 26 min. 9 pts/7 rebounds   Age: 39

LarBrd33 is correct that the Hakeem and Ewing stats could be replicated by KG and Shaq.
However, my opinion is that if Shaq can avge 9 and 7 in 15-20 minutes I won't be disappointed. 
I do expect more from KG and while it's possible that he deteriorates next year to Toronto Hakeem or Sonics Ewing, it would be a very pessimistic expectation.

Hakeem at 36 years old = 19/9
Ewing at 36 years old = 23/11

[LarBrd33]

they are both pretty severely washed up.   LIke putting Toronto Hakeem with Sonics Ewing.

We shall see.  I'd liken Shaq more to David Robinson of 2002 or 2003, and I just think your flat way off the mark on KG.  Bug again, we'll see.

Come on... KG's 14 and 7 was about equal to Jermaine O'Neal last year (another washed up big man).   Those numbers are just going to dive more this year.  KG is old.

Shaq averaged 12 and 6 as a starter... getting bench minutes means he'll probably average 6 and 3 on this team.

I imagine KG will put up numbers equal to Ewing on the SOnics... while Shaq might put up Raptors Hakeem numbers.   

Hakeem w/ Toronto (01-02): 22 min. 7 pts/ 6 rebounds  Age: 39
Ewing w/ Seattle (00-01) 26 min. 9 pts/7 rebounds   Age: 39

LarBrd33 is correct that the Hakeem and Ewing stats could be replicated by KG and Shaq.
However, my opinion is that if Shaq can avge 9 and 7 in 15-20 minutes I won't be disappointed. 
I do expect more from KG and while it's possible that he deteriorates next year to Toronto Hakeem or Sonics Ewing, it would be a very pessimistic expectation.

Hakeem at 36 years old = 19/9
Ewing at 36 years old = 23/11

age aside... this is KG's 16th year.   Ewing in his 16th year averaged 9 and 7.  That's about what i expect from washed up KG this year.

Age aside... Hakeem only played 18 years... this is Shaq's 19th... 7 points and 6 rebounds is optimistic. 

[guava_wrench]

Few things

- Kevin Garnett is no longer the best defensive PF in the game. That is Anderson Varejao.

- Shaq will not be starting as has been made clear by the Celtics announcement of Shaq agreeing to a contract and that he has agreed to coming off the bench for the first time in his career

- Just because KG and Shaq can be dominant for very short periods doesn't translate to 48 minutes of good things happening for the Boston Celtics. What has to be taken into consideration is what can be expected of them in the long term and on the average, not what they might be able to do once a week or once every two weeks for half a game or so. yes it will be entertaining watching them when they are "every bit as good once as they ever were" but all that gives us is a glimpse of what could have been once upon a time and not what we should expect to get regularly.

- KG playing 30 minutes and being healthy the whole year is good for the Celtics. Shaq playing 15-20 minutes a night as a back up center and staying healthy the entire year is a good thing for the Celtics. But let's keep our expectations of what to expect from these two former greats and future Hall of Famers grounded. Yes there will be night, probably few and far between when they amaze us but more realistically, they will be just to cogs in a greater machine that play their parts to make the whole better.

a healthy kg is the best defensive pf in the nba

I agree with nick on this. KG's version of healthy is still a battered vet healthy. Especially over the course of a season.

When someone, for example, has no more cartilage in their knee, that is who they are. That is them being healthy. KG has lost a lot of game.

Hopefully, as a team, we can still be good enough. It will be tough.

[nickagneta]

they are both pretty severely washed up.   LIke putting Toronto Hakeem with Sonics Ewing.

We shall see.  I'd liken Shaq more to David Robinson of 2002 or 2003, and I just think your flat way off the mark on KG.  Bug again, we'll see.

Come on... KG's 14 and 7 was about equal to Jermaine O'Neal last year (another washed up big man).   Those numbers are just going to dive more this year.  KG is old.

Shaq averaged 12 and 6 as a starter... getting bench minutes means he'll probably average 6 and 3 on this team.

I imagine KG will put up numbers equal to Ewing on the SOnics... while Shaq might put up Raptors Hakeem numbers.   

:Shrugs: I don't think their impacts are measured only in points and rebounds.  For example, in last year's playoffs:

KG scored 16.2 points on 49.5% FG with 1.5 TOs per 36 minutes. 

Meanwhile, his primary defensive assignments (Beasley, Jamison, Lewis, and Gasol) averaged 9 points on 36% FG with 2.3 TOs per 36 minutes when he was guarding them (523 total minutes). 

Those same 4 guys averaged 20.6 points on 53.4% FG with 1.5 TOs per 36 minutes against Boston when KG wasn't on them (234 minutes). And they averaged 18.2 points on 53.7% FG and 1.8 TOs per 36 minutes in the 2010 postseason when they weren't playing Boston.

In other words, KG took 4 guys that scored a lot on great percentages against other teams (and even against the Celtics when he was on the bench) and shut them out of the scoreboards.

And that's not even mentioning KG's team defensive impact, where the 2010 Celtics postseason defense with KG suddenly looked eerily similar to the 2008 Celtics postseason defense and absolutely nothing like 2009 Celtics defense without him.

Similarly, I don't expect Shaq to suddenly come in here and average 20 and 10 again.  But if he starts, I expect that the team offense will suddenly start working better.  Efficiency will be up, scoring will be up, and scoring droughts on the first unit will decrease.  Now it may be Rondo or Pierce that gets the credit for this because they likely will lead the team in scoring and assists again.  But the underlying difference from years past will be the threat of 2 bigs as skilled and still difficult to defend as KG and Shaq on one frontline.

I could care less what their averages are, and I haven't even spent much ink on Jermaine who I was also pretty excited about before Shaq signed.  But I think the 2010-11 Celtics are going to surprise a lot of people this year, and I'm counting down the days until the season starts and I can watch it pan out.

And the scoring of the other team will be remarkably up because every team in the league knows to play the pick and role versus Shaq when he is on the floor because he can't guard it.

It works both ways with Shaq. And if your defense is that playing with the starters will cover up his deficiencies, is that what you really want? Do you want your starters playing extra hard trying to cover up the defensive deficiencies of their starting center all year long so that they are more tired to start the playoffs than they would have been if they had a competent defensive center playing.

Listen, I'm all for positivity but I also like to stay grounded in expectations. Given we lost our two centers, picking up the O'Neals are a great find for Danny and probably puts us right back into the discussion for best teams in the league. But neither player is what they once were and neither is a game changer any longer. Honestly, I wouldn't trade either one of them straight up for a healthy Perkins.

So our first team is probably going to be as good as they were with a healthy Perk in the lineup and our big man depth off the bench will be improved if Perk can come back and give the team any meaningful minutes. But this team is really not appreciably better or worse than the one that just finished playing in June. They do, however, have to rely heavily on 4 starters that are going to be 33, 34, 35 and either 32 or 38 years old. Not exactly a recipe for success when none of those players are any longer a top 25 player in the league.

[guava_wrench]

they are both pretty severely washed up.   LIke putting Toronto Hakeem with Sonics Ewing.

We shall see.  I'd liken Shaq more to David Robinson of 2002 or 2003, and I just think your flat way off the mark on KG.  Bug again, we'll see.

Come on... KG's 14 and 7 was about equal to Jermaine O'Neal last year (another washed up big man).   Those numbers are just going to dive more this year.  KG is old.

Shaq averaged 12 and 6 as a starter... getting bench minutes means he'll probably average 6 and 3 on this team.

I imagine KG will put up numbers equal to Ewing on the SOnics... while Shaq might put up Raptors Hakeem numbers.   

Hakeem w/ Toronto (01-02): 22 min. 7 pts/ 6 rebounds  Age: 39
Ewing w/ Seattle (00-01) 26 min. 9 pts/7 rebounds   Age: 39

LarBrd33 is correct that the Hakeem and Ewing stats could be replicated by KG and Shaq.
However, my opinion is that if Shaq can avge 9 and 7 in 15-20 minutes I won't be disappointed. 
I do expect more from KG and while it's possible that he deteriorates next year to Toronto Hakeem or Sonics Ewing, it would be a very pessimistic expectation.

Hakeem at 36 years old = 19/9
Ewing at 36 years old = 23/11

age aside... this is KG's 16th year.   Ewing in his 16th year averaged 9 and 7.  That's about what i expect from washed up KG this year.

Age aside... Hakeem only played 18 years... this is Shaq's 19th... 7 points and 6 rebounds is optimistic. 

Shaq is a different player. He is so big, he can still score easily. Hakeem used a lot of speed to be great. I don't agree with the idea of making parallels between those two.

It will be interesting to see how much KG will be shooting. He will still take those J's, but I don't expect KG to visit the post much on offense this season which could mean a further drop in scoring.

A deep frontcourt also means less minutes for KG and less stats.

[LarBrd33]

10 years ago, Shaq and KG together would have been unstoppable. 

[Neurotic Guy]

they are both pretty severely washed up.   LIke putting Toronto Hakeem with Sonics Ewing.

We shall see.  I'd liken Shaq more to David Robinson of 2002 or 2003, and I just think your flat way off the mark on KG.  Bug again, we'll see.

Come on... KG's 14 and 7 was about equal to Jermaine O'Neal last year (another washed up big man).   Those numbers are just going to dive more this year.  KG is old.

Shaq averaged 12 and 6 as a starter... getting bench minutes means he'll probably average 6 and 3 on this team.

I imagine KG will put up numbers equal to Ewing on the SOnics... while Shaq might put up Raptors Hakeem numbers.   

Hakeem w/ Toronto (01-02): 22 min. 7 pts/ 6 rebounds  Age: 39
Ewing w/ Seattle (00-01) 26 min. 9 pts/7 rebounds   Age: 39

LarBrd33 is correct that the Hakeem and Ewing stats could be replicated by KG and Shaq.
However, my opinion is that if Shaq can avge 9 and 7 in 15-20 minutes I won't be disappointed. 
I do expect more from KG and while it's possible that he deteriorates next year to Toronto Hakeem or Sonics Ewing, it would be a very pessimistic expectation.

Hakeem at 36 years old = 19/9
Ewing at 36 years old = 23/11

age aside... this is KG's 16th year.   Ewing in his 16th year averaged 9 and 7.  That's about what i expect from washed up KG this year.

Age aside... Hakeem only played 18 years... this is Shaq's 19th... 7 points and 6 rebounds is optimistic. 

KG is washed up?  Shaq will optimistically be a 7/6 guy?
You've assessed Jermaine, KG and Shaq as washed up and Perk is injured.

I have to conclude that you are either intentionally trying to agitate, or you have already written off the C's for 2010-11. That would be a stance very few folks would agree with. 

This team was 4 points from an NBA championship 3 months ago, While you may turn out to be correct about the old bigs, you are taking pessimism to a level not seen here since the days of Scintan. 

[GreenFaith1819]

I've only read the last 2 pages or so of this thread.

There is an interesting tone here.

Nick - are you serious about Anderson Varejao being the best defensive PF?

And with the comments I've seen on KG here - do we still believe we can contend for Banner 18 this year?

I do.

[nickagneta]

I've only read the last 2 pages or so of this thread.

There is an interesting tone here.

Nick - are you serious about Anderson Varejao being the best defensive PF?

And with the comments I've seen on KG here - do we still believe we can contend for Banner 18 this year?

I do.

Yes I am serious. I think defensively, he is the best power forward in the league.

He's a great low post defender against low post power forwards. He has the quickness and lateral speed to defender the small faster perimeter power forwards. He is an excellent help defender and is always willing to sacrifice his body to take a charge and even create some charges that aren't there. He can also guard three positions at above average levels.

He's also an excellent defensive rebounder and good overall rebounder. He has great length and good hands so gets his hands on a lot of deflections and will give you a steal and block per game.

So yeah, with the aging games of Duncan(who now plays more center) and KG, on a game in and game out basis, Anderson Varejao is the best defensive power forward in the league.

KG came back defensively in the Playoffs but he basically took off the entire regular season to have the energy to play that way in the playoffs. Could it be he was recovering the whole year? Sure that was part of it. But he also coasted defensively for parts of last season as well. That was fairly evident in every player in the team last regular season and KG is not immune to that criticism.

[GreenFaith1819]

I've only read the last 2 pages or so of this thread.

There is an interesting tone here.

Nick - are you serious about Anderson Varejao being the best defensive PF?

And with the comments I've seen on KG here - do we still believe we can contend for Banner 18 this year?

I do.

Yes I am serious. I think defensively, he is the best power forward in the league.

He's a great low post defender against low post power forwards. He has the quickness and lateral speed to defender the small faster perimeter power forwards. He is an excellent help defender and is always willing to sacrifice his body to take a charge and even create some charges that aren't there. He can also guard three positions at above average levels.

He's also an excellent defensive rebounder and good overall rebounder. He has great length and good hands so gets his hands on a lot of deflections and will give you a steal and block per game.

So yeah, with the aging games of Duncan(who now plays more center) and KG, on a game in and game out basis, Anderson Varejao is the best defensive power forward in the league.

KG came back defensively in the Playoffs but he basically took off the entire regular season to have the energy to play that way in the playoffs. Could it be he was recovering the whole year? Sure that was part of it. But he also coasted defensively for parts of last season as well. That was fairly evident in every player in the team last regular season and KG is not immune to that criticism.

So if Boston did a trade last Febuary - KG for Varejao, straight up - do you think we would've made it to LA?

[Gomesfan]

A "healthy" Perk and "healthy" Garnett are the best big man combo in the league and we proved that up until Perk's injury  .

tp

[nickagneta]

I've only read the last 2 pages or so of this thread.

There is an interesting tone here.

Nick - are you serious about Anderson Varejao being the best defensive PF?

And with the comments I've seen on KG here - do we still believe we can contend for Banner 18 this year?

I do.

Yes I am serious. I think defensively, he is the best power forward in the league.

He's a great low post defender against low post power forwards. He has the quickness and lateral speed to defender the small faster perimeter power forwards. He is an excellent help defender and is always willing to sacrifice his body to take a charge and even create some charges that aren't there. He can also guard three positions at above average levels.

He's also an excellent defensive rebounder and good overall rebounder. He has great length and good hands so gets his hands on a lot of deflections and will give you a steal and block per game.

So yeah, with the aging games of Duncan(who now plays more center) and KG, on a game in and game out basis, Anderson Varejao is the best defensive power forward in the league.

KG came back defensively in the Playoffs but he basically took off the entire regular season to have the energy to play that way in the playoffs. Could it be he was recovering the whole year? Sure that was part of it. But he also coasted defensively for parts of last season as well. That was fairly evident in every player in the team last regular season and KG is not immune to that criticism.

So if Boston did a trade last Febuary - KG for Varejao, straight up - do you think we would've made it to LA?

No because KG is much better offensively than Varejao is. He's a better outside shooter that spreads the floor. He's a better low post player when he decides to post up. He is a better free throw shooter. He's a better clutch player all around and a way better leader of men.

But defensively Varejao is better.

[GreenFaith1819]

I've only read the last 2 pages or so of this thread.

There is an interesting tone here.

Nick - are you serious about Anderson Varejao being the best defensive PF?

And with the comments I've seen on KG here - do we still believe we can contend for Banner 18 this year?

I do.

Yes I am serious. I think defensively, he is the best power forward in the league.

He's a great low post defender against low post power forwards. He has the quickness and lateral speed to defender the small faster perimeter power forwards. He is an excellent help defender and is always willing to sacrifice his body to take a charge and even create some charges that aren't there. He can also guard three positions at above average levels.

He's also an excellent defensive rebounder and good overall rebounder. He has great length and good hands so gets his hands on a lot of deflections and will give you a steal and block per game.

So yeah, with the aging games of Duncan(who now plays more center) and KG, on a game in and game out basis, Anderson Varejao is the best defensive power forward in the league.

KG came back defensively in the Playoffs but he basically took off the entire regular season to have the energy to play that way in the playoffs. Could it be he was recovering the whole year? Sure that was part of it. But he also coasted defensively for parts of last season as well. That was fairly evident in every player in the team last regular season and KG is not immune to that criticism.

So if Boston did a trade last Febuary - KG for Varejao, straight up - do you think we would've made it to LA?

No because KG is much better offensively than Varejao is. He's a better outside shooter that spreads the floor. He's a better low post player when he decides to post up. He is a better free throw shooter. He's a better clutch player all around and a way better leader of men.

But defensively Varejao is better.

Well, I think Varejao is one of the better PF defenders, but not better than KG.

He was unable to slow KG down in the CLE series. I think KG and Rondo were the best players overall in that series.

Do you believe that Andy would've done better defensively VS Beasely - Jamison - Lewis - Gasol?

[celticsclay]

they are both pretty severely washed up.   LIke putting Toronto Hakeem with Sonics Ewing.

We shall see.  I'd liken Shaq more to David Robinson of 2002 or 2003, and I just think your flat way off the mark on KG.  Bug again, we'll see.

Come on... KG's 14 and 7 was about equal to Jermaine O'Neal last year (another washed up big man).   Those numbers are just going to dive more this year.  KG is old.

Shaq averaged 12 and 6 as a starter... getting bench minutes means he'll probably average 6 and 3 on this team.

I imagine KG will put up numbers equal to Ewing on the SOnics... while Shaq might put up Raptors Hakeem numbers.   

Hakeem w/ Toronto (01-02): 22 min. 7 pts/ 6 rebounds  Age: 39
Ewing w/ Seattle (00-01) 26 min. 9 pts/7 rebounds   Age: 39

LarBrd33 is correct that the Hakeem and Ewing stats could be replicated by KG and Shaq.
However, my opinion is that if Shaq can avge 9 and 7 in 15-20 minutes I won't be disappointed. 
I do expect more from KG and while it's possible that he deteriorates next year to Toronto Hakeem or Sonics Ewing, it would be a very pessimistic expectation.

Hakeem at 36 years old = 19/9
Ewing at 36 years old = 23/11

age aside... this is KG's 16th year.   Ewing in his 16th year averaged 9 and 7.  That's about what i expect from washed up KG this year.

Age aside... Hakeem only played 18 years... this is Shaq's 19th... 7 points and 6 rebounds is optimistic. 

KG is washed up?  Shaq will optimistically be a 7/6 guy?
You've assessed Jermaine, KG and Shaq as washed up and Perk is injured.

I have to conclude that you are either intentionally trying to agitate, or you have already written off the C's for 2010-11. That would be a stance very few folks would agree with. 

This team was 4 points from an NBA championship 3 months ago, While you may turn out to be correct about the old bigs, you are taking pessimism to a level not seen here since the days of Scintan. 

You made me laugh with the Scintan reference. Is that guy still around? I used to always get into it with him. Lol.
As for this debate to quote monty python "lets not bicker and argue over who killed who. This is supposed to be a happy occasion!"