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Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« on: August 09, 2010, 10:24:38 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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I love Pierce, and I love the Chief, but either he's angling for Tommy's job when he retires or he's been smoking too much dope.

"I think Paul Pierce, the way he manufactures points is the best player the Celtics have seen thus far," Parish told the Globe. "

"That's saying a lot because you are talking about John Havlicek, [who] was the best offensive player that the Celtics had, the way he manufactures points. But Paul Pierce has them all beat. He’s got the Sam Joneses, the (Don) Nelsons, the Tommy Heinsohns, Jones, Havlicek, (Larry) Bird, (Kevin) McHale, myself. Paul Pierce is the best offensive player the Celtics have seen thus far."

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/celtics_blog/
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2010, 10:32:07 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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I've never understood this argument.  If you want to say that Paul Pierce is the most versatile offensive player the Celtics have had, or even the most skilled, I'll listen to your argument.

But the best?  Even if you confine the argument to just scoring, Larry Bird scored more points, and converted his shots at a higher percentage.  Of course, if you factor in other parts of the offensive game, like offensive rebounding and passing, Larry blows Pierce out of the water.

So, in summary:  More points + higher FG% / eFG% + more assists + more offensive rebounds = better offensive player

I take that quote as a direct slap at Larry, since it seems like Parish has him ranked behind both Pierce and Hondo.  It shouldn't come as a huge surprise; Larry wasn't especially well-liked by a lot of his teammates off the court, which explains some of the negative statements by Max and Chief.

Also, even forgiving Parish the indulgence of grouping himself with the best scorers in Celtics history, how the heck did Don Nelson make the cut?!
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2010, 10:40:09 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Pretty sure Bob Ryan has made the same claim in the past.
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2010, 10:41:30 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Quote from: Roy Hobbs on August 09, 2010, 10:32:07 PM
I've never understood this argument.  If you want to say that Paul Pierce is the most versatile offensive player the Celtics have had, or even the most skilled, I'll listen to your argument.

But the best?  Even if you confine the argument to just scoring, Larry Bird scored more points, and converted his shots at a higher percentage.  Of course, if you factor in other parts of the offensive game, like offensive rebounding and passing, Larry blows Pierce out of the water.

So, in summary:  More points + higher FG% / eFG% + more assists + more offensive rebounds = better offensive player

I take that quote as a direct slap at Larry, since it seems like Parish has him ranked behind both Pierce and Hondo.  It shouldn't come as a huge surprise; Larry wasn't especially well-liked by a lot of his teammates off the court, which explains some of the negative statements by Max and Chief.

Also, even forgiving Parish the indulgence of grouping himself with the best scorers in Celtics history, how the heck did Don Nelson make the cut?!

Interesting, I never realized Bird was not well liked by his teammates. I knew about Maxwell, but I thought that was because he was sort of the man on the team until Larry took over and then they sent him packing. I guess that would explain Parish's comments somewhat. I agree with you Roy that the argument is ridiculous however, Bird blows Pierce away in every category. Tommy has said the same thing as Parish on multiple occasions though about Pierce being the best offensive player in celtics history. Go figure.
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2010, 10:41:43 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Quote from: Roy Hobbs on August 09, 2010, 10:32:07 PM
I've never understood this argument.  If you want to say that Paul Pierce is the most versatile offensive player the Celtics have had, or even the most skilled, I'll listen to your argument.

But the best?  Even if you confine the argument to just scoring, Larry Bird scored more points, and converted his shots at a higher percentage.  Of course, if you factor in other parts of the offensive game, like offensive rebounding and passing, Larry blows Pierce out of the water.

So, in summary:  More points + higher FG% / eFG% + more assists + more offensive rebounds = better offensive player

I take that quote as a direct slap at Larry, since it seems like Parish has him ranked behind both Pierce and Hondo.  It shouldn't come as a huge surprise; Larry wasn't especially well-liked by a lot of his teammates off the court, which explains some of the negative statements by Max and Chief.

Also, even forgiving Parish the indulgence of grouping himself with the best scorers in Celtics history, how the heck did Don Nelson make the cut?!
I too chuckled a bit when he mentioned himself.

Bird seems pretty forthcoming about how mean and unhappy he is in general. Wouldn't be surprising if he didn't get along with teammates. His drive sure did get results, though.
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2010, 10:42:47 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:40:09 PM
Pretty sure Bob Ryan has made the same claim in the past.

yes but Bob Ryan also said the 2008 team didn't have much of a chance to win the title after they got KG and Ray.
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2010, 10:43:05 PM »

Offline Change

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ish just got real. 8+ pages guarantee.


Bird lover Begin....
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2010, 10:45:18 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Quote from: hpantazo on August 09, 2010, 10:42:47 PM
Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:40:09 PM
Pretty sure Bob Ryan has made the same claim in the past.

yes but Bob Ryan also said the 2008 team didn't have much of a chance to win the title after they got KG and Ray.

He's hasn't been right on everything but I, for one, still take a lot of weight on what he says when its come to the game of basketball.  He's been around long enough in this town to see a lot of talent come and go.
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2010, 10:47:15 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:45:18 PM
Quote from: hpantazo on August 09, 2010, 10:42:47 PM
Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:40:09 PM
Pretty sure Bob Ryan has made the same claim in the past.

yes but Bob Ryan also said the 2008 team didn't have much of a chance to win the title after they got KG and Ray.

He's hasn't been right on everything but I, for one, still take a lot of weight on what he says when its come to the game of basketball.  He's been around long enough in this town to see a lot of talent come and go.

I definitely respect Ryan, just like I respect Tommy.  If either of them thinks that Pierce was a "better" offensive player than Larry, though, they're crazy. 
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2010, 10:49:24 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Quote from: Roy Hobbs on August 09, 2010, 10:47:15 PM
Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:45:18 PM
Quote from: hpantazo on August 09, 2010, 10:42:47 PM
Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:40:09 PM
Pretty sure Bob Ryan has made the same claim in the past.

yes but Bob Ryan also said the 2008 team didn't have much of a chance to win the title after they got KG and Ray.

He's hasn't been right on everything but I, for one, still take a lot of weight on what he says when its come to the game of basketball.  He's been around long enough in this town to see a lot of talent come and go.

I definitely respect Ryan, just like I respect Tommy.  If either of them thinks that Pierce was a "better" offensive player than Larry, though, they're crazy. 

Is it really entirely "crazy" to make an proclamation like that, though?  Pierce isn't exactly chopped liver.   
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2010, 10:49:50 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Are they penalizing Bird for his reliance on burying jumpers? Look at Dirk. Even if he were to lead the league in scoring, I don't see him getting credit as being the best offensive player in the league when there are more dynamic wings out there.

I would really have to watch a lot of old Celtics games to have an opinion on this. I remember Bird having back his man down iso moves that were very effective and a ridiculous turnaround baseline fadeaway on the lower blocks.
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2010, 10:50:07 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Quote from: Roy Hobbs on August 09, 2010, 10:47:15 PM
Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:45:18 PM
Quote from: hpantazo on August 09, 2010, 10:42:47 PM
Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:40:09 PM
Pretty sure Bob Ryan has made the same claim in the past.

yes but Bob Ryan also said the 2008 team didn't have much of a chance to win the title after they got KG and Ray.

He's hasn't been right on everything but I, for one, still take a lot of weight on what he says when its come to the game of basketball.  He's been around long enough in this town to see a lot of talent come and go.

I definitely respect Ryan, just like I respect Tommy.  If either of them thinks that Pierce was a "better" offensive player than Larry, though, they're crazy. 


I respect both of them as well, I even had dinner with Tommy a few years back, but I believe that although both have a lot of basketball knowledge to contribute, they also are not without personal bias.
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2010, 10:52:15 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Roy Hobbs on August 09, 2010, 10:47:15 PM
Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:45:18 PM
Quote from: hpantazo on August 09, 2010, 10:42:47 PM
Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:40:09 PM
Pretty sure Bob Ryan has made the same claim in the past.

yes but Bob Ryan also said the 2008 team didn't have much of a chance to win the title after they got KG and Ray.

He's hasn't been right on everything but I, for one, still take a lot of weight on what he says when its come to the game of basketball.  He's been around long enough in this town to see a lot of talent come and go.

I definitely respect Ryan, just like I respect Tommy.  If either of them thinks that Pierce was a "better" offensive player than Larry, though, they're crazy.  

Is it really entirely "crazy" to make an proclamation like that, though?  Pierce isn't exactly chopped liver.  

No he's certainly not chopped liver. Pierce is my personal favorite all time celtic, but he's not anywhere near the level of  Bird when it comes to offensive skill and production.
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2010, 10:53:43 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Roy Hobbs on August 09, 2010, 10:47:15 PM
Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:45:18 PM
Quote from: hpantazo on August 09, 2010, 10:42:47 PM
Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:40:09 PM
Pretty sure Bob Ryan has made the same claim in the past.

yes but Bob Ryan also said the 2008 team didn't have much of a chance to win the title after they got KG and Ray.

He's hasn't been right on everything but I, for one, still take a lot of weight on what he says when its come to the game of basketball.  He's been around long enough in this town to see a lot of talent come and go.

I definitely respect Ryan, just like I respect Tommy.  If either of them thinks that Pierce was a "better" offensive player than Larry, though, they're crazy. 

Is it really entirely "crazy" to make an proclamation like that, though?  Pierce isn't exactly chopped liver.   

Sure it is.  Again, Larry leads in points, FG%, eFG%, offensive rebounds, and assists.  Objectively, how does he rank behind Pierce in terms of offense?

Also, of course, is Pierce was the better offensive player, he has to be considered the better player, period, doesn't he?  Both had their ups and downs, but Pierce was probably the slightly better defender.  And yet...  the idea of Paul Pierce being better than Larry Bird just doesn't make much sense at all to anybody.

Paul Pierce is a top-ten to top-fifteen player of his generation.  Larry Bird is a top-five player of all time.  To but Pierce on Larry's level -- or on a higher level -- is indeed crazy.
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Re: Parish says Pierce is best offensive player celtics ever had
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2010, 11:01:44 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Quote from: Roy Hobbs on August 09, 2010, 10:53:43 PM
Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Roy Hobbs on August 09, 2010, 10:47:15 PM
Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:45:18 PM
Quote from: hpantazo on August 09, 2010, 10:42:47 PM
Quote from: Donoghus on August 09, 2010, 10:40:09 PM
Pretty sure Bob Ryan has made the same claim in the past.

yes but Bob Ryan also said the 2008 team didn't have much of a chance to win the title after they got KG and Ray.

He's hasn't been right on everything but I, for one, still take a lot of weight on what he says when its come to the game of basketball.  He's been around long enough in this town to see a lot of talent come and go.

I definitely respect Ryan, just like I respect Tommy.  If either of them thinks that Pierce was a "better" offensive player than Larry, though, they're crazy. 

Is it really entirely "crazy" to make an proclamation like that, though?  Pierce isn't exactly chopped liver.   

Sure it is.  Again, Larry leads in points, FG%, eFG%, offensive rebounds, and assists.  Objectively, how does he rank behind Pierce in terms of offense?

Also, of course, is Pierce was the better offensive player, he has to be considered the better player, period, doesn't he?  Both had their ups and downs, but Pierce was probably the slightly better defender.  And yet...  the idea of Paul Pierce being better than Larry Bird just doesn't make much sense at all to anybody.

Paul Pierce is a top-ten to top-fifteen player of his generation.  Larry Bird is a top-five player of all time.  To but Pierce on Larry's level -- or on a higher level -- is indeed crazy.

See, there's the problem, you're pointing out numbers while I believe the case is built on perception of play through ones' eyes and can't necessarily be quantified by numbers.  I think Ryan has done this too.  Parish points out the "manufacturing" of points.  I think its entirely possible to make quite the compelling case that Pierce has been the best at manufacturing points.  IMO, that doesn't have to be tied to FG% or eFG%.  That comes from watching Pierce's game.  The play he plays basketball.  What he does when has the basketball in his hands to create his own shot. 

If that is is being used to judge the case of "best offensive player", then Pierce is arguabley the greatest Celtic at doing it.

I don't think Ryan or Parish (unless I read things wrong in that article) are saying that Pierce is the better basketball player as a whole.  Simply, that Pierce has been the best at creating or manufacturing his own shot.  I don't think that's crazy talk at all. 
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