Shaq wants to be a Celtic

[MBunge]

Marcin Gortat got the full MLE and averaged 3 points and 4 rebounds for Orlando last year.

So because the Magic were idiots and overpaid Gortat, it's going to be ok if we do it with Shaq? Interesting logic.

Again, Shaq averaged 12 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.2 blocks on 23 minutes a game last season.  No matter how bad his pick-n-roll defense is, you think THAT'S only worth a vet min contract?

Mike  

A player's value depends on the role he'll be asked to fill.

For the Celtics, I reckon Shaq would be worth $2-3 million as a fourth big man in the depth chart playing 10-15 minutes a night. Similar to BBD.

On another team, Shaq may be asked and ably fulfill the duties of a starter playing 22-28 minutes a night. I think he'd be worth around $5-6 million in that role.

Given KG's age, Jermaine's health and Davis' limitations, the 4th big on the Celtic roster is going to be playing a lot more than 10-15 minutes a night.

And a center who can still score against any defender in the NBA would be way, way, waaaaaaaay more valuable to Boston's 2nd unit than Davis.

Again, the only center you're going to be able to get for the vet min is somebody like Aaron Gray.  Are people really arguing that Shaq isn't better than Aaron Gray?

Mike

[Rondo_is_better]

Shaq draws a lot of fouls and gets the opposing team into the penalty early, which alone should considerably help our offensive efficiency.

Perk taking that unnecessary dribble; is that before or after he travels...

Problem is that there is going to be no need to foul him near the basket soon enough since he can't finish consistently anymore.

He shot 56 percent last season and 51 percent in the playoffs. Is that not consistent enough?

In comparison over the last 3 years combined Perkins has shot 59.6% from the field. Just throwing that out there

How often did Perkins, 3 feet from the hoop, have to take an unnecessary dribble to gather himself.. only to have it stolen or forced into some sort of turnover?  Shaq finishes next to the hoop, plain and simple.  He doesn't have the lift like he used to, but I watched him bull over Perkins & Davis next to the hoop with limited touches.

With the amount of times the Celtics have gotten the ball to Perkins and other bigs 3ft from the hoop, Shaq would fit in well and succeed.

Perk taking that unnecessary dribble; is that before or after he travels...?

...which is then followed by a technical foul because the referee is always incorrect in his mind.  

Guys I'm reading these quotes and I can't believe what I'm seeing. Perk does dumb stuff on the offensive end, but Shaq? Shaq just MISSES on the offensive end. He's really old and NOT very good anymore.

I don't love the Perk bashing, but Shaq doesn't "just miss" all that often.  In 2009 he led the NBA in FG%, and last season he was at 56.6%.  That's a pretty impressive percentage for a player that creates his own offense (unlike Perk), and placed him in the top ten in the NBA.

Anytime he faced legitimate defense (i.e. Perk) he was the most atrocious player I've ever seen. He'd get good position once every 4 trips and dunk the ball. Otherwise he'd take some awful looking hook that made Perk look like Kareem. Shaq used to have the strength of a bull, the grace of a dancer, as well as supple young joints capable of exploding, then stopping on a dime to get the right touch on a shot. Now he has the clumsy strength of an ox. And nothing else. My opinions on Shaq are based solely on observation, but I stand behind them 10000%. Anything more than $3 million and 15 minutes a game is a horrible move by the Celtics.

[Jon]

Marcin Gortat got the full MLE and averaged 3 points and 4 rebounds for Orlando last year.

So because the Magic were idiots and overpaid Gortat, it's going to be ok if we do it with Shaq? Interesting logic.

Again, Shaq averaged 12 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.2 blocks on 23 minutes a game last season.  No matter how bad his pick-n-roll defense is, you think THAT'S only worth a vet min contract?

Mike  

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=Q8dos

To compare the two O'Neals. Shaqs problems are in the amount of minutes he'll demand and his overall poor defense. He's not going to accept being a backup C to Perkins or O'Neal.

If Shaq isn't willing to come off the bench, then he's not a good fit for Boston.

Mike

Unless Jermaine doesn't care.  Shaq is probably only going to play 20 mpg or so.  Whether he starts those minutes or comes off the bench really doesn't matter. 

So if JO was willing to come off the bench for 28-30 mpg, it really wouldn't matter that much. 

[Who]

Marcin Gortat got the full MLE and averaged 3 points and 4 rebounds for Orlando last year.

So because the Magic were idiots and overpaid Gortat, it's going to be ok if we do it with Shaq? Interesting logic.

Again, Shaq averaged 12 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.2 blocks on 23 minutes a game last season.  No matter how bad his pick-n-roll defense is, you think THAT'S only worth a vet min contract?

Mike  

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=Q8dos

To compare the two O'Neals. Shaqs problems are in the amount of minutes he'll demand and his overall poor defense. He's not going to accept being a backup C to Perkins or O'Neal.

If Shaq isn't willing to come off the bench, then he's not a good fit for Boston.

Mike

Unless Jermaine doesn't care.  Shaq is probably only going to play 20 mpg or so.  Whether he starts those minutes or comes off the bench really doesn't matter. 

So if JO was willing to come off the bench for 28-30 mpg, it really wouldn't matter that much. 

I don't want Shaq playing with Rondo.

I think he'll limit Rondo's game even more than he limited Nash in Phoenix.

Consequently, I think it's very important where Shaq gets his minutes and who he is playing alongside during those minutes.

[Rondo_is_better]

question: let's say shaq was S&T'd to the Cs for a year at 4 mil -- along with Jamerio Moon -- for Sheed's deal and cash and / or a pick.

would folks be satisfied?

I'd rather see Anthony Parker traded here, since he's a better shooter and is more capable of playing both SG/SF.  I don't really worry that much about the money; if Wyc is willing to cut the check, perfect.

interesting you'd rather have parker. i think of moon as the better defender -- would you agree?

He's a better defender against small forwards, and is more of a leaper.  Parker is better against SGs, though, I think, and his SF defense is probably average.

well of course i have the image of moon going up for alley-oops from rondo, but at the end of the day parkers shooting may be more valuable. what's most important to me is the defensive end, and i felt like last year parker had lost a step.

another guy who can play some defense at the 2 is kyle weaver, who should be readily available considering OKC has 16 players right now. don't really see him as a rotation guy but insurance, especially if bradley proves capable of defending 2s. trade lafayette (immediately cut) and a protected 2nd to presti for him...

Its also worth mentioning that Anthony Parker is like 79 years old. (35).

[Fafnir]

Shaq draws a lot of fouls and gets the opposing team into the penalty early, which alone should considerably help our offensive efficiency.

Perk taking that unnecessary dribble; is that before or after he travels...

Problem is that there is going to be no need to foul him near the basket soon enough since he can't finish consistently anymore.

He shot 56 percent last season and 51 percent in the playoffs. Is that not consistent enough?

In comparison over the last 3 years combined Perkins has shot 59.6% from the field. Just throwing that out there

How often did Perkins, 3 feet from the hoop, have to take an unnecessary dribble to gather himself.. only to have it stolen or forced into some sort of turnover?  Shaq finishes next to the hoop, plain and simple.  He doesn't have the lift like he used to, but I watched him bull over Perkins & Davis next to the hoop with limited touches.

With the amount of times the Celtics have gotten the ball to Perkins and other bigs 3ft from the hoop, Shaq would fit in well and succeed.

Perk taking that unnecessary dribble; is that before or after he travels...?

...which is then followed by a technical foul because the referee is always incorrect in his mind.  

Guys I'm reading these quotes and I can't believe what I'm seeing. Perk does dumb stuff on the offensive end, but Shaq? Shaq just MISSES on the offensive end. He's really old and NOT very good anymore.

I don't love the Perk bashing, but Shaq doesn't "just miss" all that often.  In 2009 he led the NBA in FG%, and last season he was at 56.6%.  That's a pretty impressive percentage for a player that creates his own offense (unlike Perk), and placed him in the top ten in the NBA.

Anytime he faced legitimate defense (i.e. Perk) he was the most atrocious player I've ever seen. He'd get good position once every 4 trips and dunk the ball. Otherwise he'd take some awful looking hook that made Perk look like Kareem. Shaq used to have the strength of a bull, the grace of a dancer, as well as supple young joints capable of exploding, then stopping on a dime to get the right touch on a shot. Now he has the clumsy strength of an ox. And nothing else. My opinions on Shaq are based solely on observation, but I stand behind them 10000%. Anything more than $3 million and 15 minutes a game is a horrible move by the Celtics.

Perkins isn't just a legitimate defender. He's probably the finest post defender in the NBA right now. Saying Shaq wasn't incredibly effective against him isn't a surprise.

He also shot 52% against Boston.

[MBunge]

Marcin Gortat got the full MLE and averaged 3 points and 4 rebounds for Orlando last year.

So because the Magic were idiots and overpaid Gortat, it's going to be ok if we do it with Shaq? Interesting logic.

Again, Shaq averaged 12 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.2 blocks on 23 minutes a game last season.  No matter how bad his pick-n-roll defense is, you think THAT'S only worth a vet min contract?

Mike  

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=Q8dos

To compare the two O'Neals. Shaqs problems are in the amount of minutes he'll demand and his overall poor defense. He's not going to accept being a backup C to Perkins or O'Neal.

If Shaq isn't willing to come off the bench, then he's not a good fit for Boston.

Mike

Unless Jermaine doesn't care.  Shaq is probably only going to play 20 mpg or so.  Whether he starts those minutes or comes off the bench really doesn't matter. 

So if JO was willing to come off the bench for 28-30 mpg, it really wouldn't matter that much. 

Shaq with the starters is not a good fit for more than a few minutes at a time.  At this point, you absolutely have to run the offense through Shaq in order to maximize his effectiveness.  While that would work with Ray and KG, I don't think Paul would be productive and playing that way would emphasize all of Rondo's weaknesses while diminishing his strengths.

But put Shaq on the floor with Nate, Marquis, Davis and Moon/Parker or some other wing?  That's a great fit.

Mike

[Jon]

Marcin Gortat got the full MLE and averaged 3 points and 4 rebounds for Orlando last year.

So because the Magic were idiots and overpaid Gortat, it's going to be ok if we do it with Shaq? Interesting logic.

Again, Shaq averaged 12 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.2 blocks on 23 minutes a game last season.  No matter how bad his pick-n-roll defense is, you think THAT'S only worth a vet min contract?

Mike  

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=Q8dos

To compare the two O'Neals. Shaqs problems are in the amount of minutes he'll demand and his overall poor defense. He's not going to accept being a backup C to Perkins or O'Neal.

If Shaq isn't willing to come off the bench, then he's not a good fit for Boston.

Mike

Unless Jermaine doesn't care.  Shaq is probably only going to play 20 mpg or so.  Whether he starts those minutes or comes off the bench really doesn't matter. 

So if JO was willing to come off the bench for 28-30 mpg, it really wouldn't matter that much. 

I don't want Shaq playing with Rondo.

I think he'll limit Rondo's game even more than he limited Nash in Phoenix.

Consequently, I think it's very important where Shaq gets his minutes and who he is playing alongside during those minutes.

Maybe.  But you act like Rondo's usually out there with Tyson Chandler and Amar'e Stoudemire on the break.  Perk is slow, Wallace was slow, and KG has been slowed, and Rondo did just fine.  Most of Rondo's jaw-dropping plays were either with the second unit and Tony Allen on the break or in the half court.  I don't think Shaq holds him back that much.

Whether Shaq starts or not, he still is going to play some minutes with Rondo.  And depending on how Doc works the rotations, he could limit his time with Rondo just as much as a start than as a bench player.  Starting for Shaq could be for the first 5 minutes, and then having him come back in the second quarter with most of the bench still on.  

And even if you disagree with all of that, assuming we can't land Josh Howard or the like, a Shaq trade, even if he does inhibit Rondo a bit, is a net gain over some minimum guy tripping over himself on the floor.  

[LilRip]

Firstly, Perk is a huge factor in Boston's lack of offensive efficiency.  That's because his lack of production or even potential to produce offense forces the other 4 players on the court to compensate.

  We aren't a very inefficient offensive team, and our inefficiency is due mainly to turnovers and a lack of offensive rebounding. Shaq won't help a ton with either of these situations. He'll help a little with the offense, especially late in the clock, but I don't think he'll make us much more efficient. 

actually, we are quite an average offensive team that tends to sputter at times and get red-hot at other times. the reason we're so good is that league-best defense.

and Perk is not a good offensive player and not comparable to Shaq. It's not that Shaq is still dominating. It's just that Perk is a poor offensive player. i don't think Perk has ever drawn a double team in his career while Shaq will still command a double team at times at his age. On top of that, he can pass very well out of the post. Give Shaq the kind of touches that Perk got last year and i bet he'll turn it over a lot less and convert a lot more.



- LilRip

Actually just the opposite we were very efficient offensive team that turned the ball over too much and didn't get enough defensive rebounds.  top 5 FG%, top 2 assists.  And even the TOs are stat can be misleading. Most of Rondos TOs are plays that 99% of NBA won't even try.  Should he try less maybe but, he has the talent to make the plays.  We lost game 7 of the Finals in LA because we couldn't grab a defensive rebound (after playing the best defense all year) and Ray Allen building a brick house.

Yes the rebounds hurt but we lost game 7 for a number of reasons. Being up 13, LA started getting awarded trips to the line and we could've kept up with them had our offense not stalled. Yes, we have a complicated and effective offense and yet, we're very turnover prone (not to mention that our offense stalls from time to time)

point is, we're not a great offensive team.

I'm kinda preoccupied right now so i can't be bothered to verify the stats but i'd figure we're on the lower end of FGA and FTA. and since it's probably Rondo who takes the most FT's in our team (because who gets to the line other than him and Pierce?), we probably don't have a great FT% either. I'm also almost sure we're the absolute worst at O-Rebs (and perhaps also Total Rebounding). and i'd think that we're one of the more turnover-prone teams. Combine high-turnover numbers with a low FGA and low O-Reb with an inability to get the line... and voila! you have a bad offensive team. It's because each miss/turnover of ours means a lot more than a miss/turnover to say, a team like Phoenix or LA. Fortunately, great FG% is our saving grace and that's why i think we're average when it comes to offense.



- LilRip

[kozlodoev]

They weren't the only ones that wanted Gortat. If you recall the Magic matched the offer sheet made by the Mavs. I think the majority of teams would offer a 26 year old big man, who defends and rebounds, that contract.

Gortat doesn't defend. He hustles -- and that's pretty much all he does. He'll grab some rebounds and get you some spectacular garbage points, but in a way, he is a glorified Leon Powe.

It was a horrible decision by Orlando to match him at that price, especially when they have a minute-eater in Howard as a starter.

Again, I absolutely don't see why we should duplicate a horrible signing which bombed spectacularly just because "other teams did it". Shaq's worth to a contended is a lot closer to the 1.35 vet minimum for a player with 10+ years of service than it is to the MLE. If he fails to grasp that, he's either going to be jobless this season, or will go to a horrible team.

[Spilling Green Dye]

Marcin Gortat got the full MLE and averaged 3 points and 4 rebounds for Orlando last year.

So because the Magic were idiots and overpaid Gortat, it's going to be ok if we do it with Shaq? Interesting logic.

Again, Shaq averaged 12 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.2 blocks on 23 minutes a game last season.  No matter how bad his pick-n-roll defense is, you think THAT'S only worth a vet min contract?

Mike  

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=Q8dos

To compare the two O'Neals. Shaqs problems are in the amount of minutes he'll demand and his overall poor defense. He's not going to accept being a backup C to Perkins or O'Neal.

How is Shaquille O'Neals defense poor? 

Comparing Shaq to Perkins:
http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE18.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS19.HTM

Their respective PER rating (in 48min span) is 20 for Shaq and 17 for Perkins.  Conversely Shaq held opposing centers to a PER of 14.2 and Perkins held opposing centers to 16.6.  Just looking at that, it seems Shaq was better on offense AND defense last year.  Again, it is all about fit for the team, and I think Shaq fits in well with this team.  Besides, who are you realistically going to get??

[kozlodoev]

How is Shaquille O'Neals defense poor? 

Comparing Shaq to Perkins:
http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE18.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS19.HTM

Their respective PER rating (in 48min span) is 20 for Shaq and 17 for Perkins.  Conversely Shaq held opposing centers to a PER of 14.2 and Perkins held opposing centers to 16.6.  Just looking at that, it seems Shaq was better on offense AND defense last year.  Again, it is all about fit for the team, and I think Shaq fits in well with this team.  Besides, who are you realistically going to get??

His defense is not poor because other centers torch him, it's poor because he can barely move, so any sort of help defense or defensive adjustment is out of the question.

[MBunge]

Shaq's worth to a contended is a lot closer to the 1.35 vet minimum for a player with 10+ years of service than it is to the MLE. If he fails to grasp that, he's either going to be jobless this season, or will go to a horrible team.

Once again

Shaq - 12 points, 6.7 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 23.4 minutes regular season.
     - 11.5 points, 5.5 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 22.1 minutes playoffs.

A 7 foot backup center who will probably give you 10 points, 5 boards and a block in just under 20 minutes a game IS NOT a vet min player.  If you could get Shaq for that, great!  But he's clearly worth more.

Mike

[MBunge]

How is Shaquille O'Neals defense poor? 

Comparing Shaq to Perkins:
http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE18.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS19.HTM

Their respective PER rating (in 48min span) is 20 for Shaq and 17 for Perkins.  Conversely Shaq held opposing centers to a PER of 14.2 and Perkins held opposing centers to 16.6.  Just looking at that, it seems Shaq was better on offense AND defense last year.  Again, it is all about fit for the team, and I think Shaq fits in well with this team.  Besides, who are you realistically going to get??

His defense is not poor because other centers torch him, it's poor because he can barely move, so any sort of help defense or defensive adjustment is out of the question.

Shaq is beyond horrible on pick-n-rolls, but I don't think he's nearly as bad on defensive rotations inside the paint.

Mike

[nickagneta]

Shaq's worth to a contended is a lot closer to the 1.35 vet minimum for a player with 10+ years of service than it is to the MLE. If he fails to grasp that, he's either going to be jobless this season, or will go to a horrible team.

Once again

Shaq - 12 points, 6.7 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 23.4 minutes regular season.
     - 11.5 points, 5.5 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 22.1 minutes playoffs.

A 7 foot backup center who will probably give you 10 points, 5 boards and a block in just under 20 minutes a game IS NOT a vet min player.  If you could get Shaq for that, great!  But he's clearly worth more.

Mike

You are only worth what someone is willing to pay you and it's fairly evident from media reports that there is not a team in the league that is willing to pay him above the LLE or $2 million a year. So it doesn't matter what his stats are, if no one is willing to pay him more than $2 million a year, then he isn't worth more than that.