Tired of Jordan's Legacy, the Bulls were the best defensive team of the 90s.

[TitleMaster]

This is how the Knicks win the EC Semis or Finals against the Bulls, to highlight Olajuwon repertoire.

"The Clock is winding down, the final possession of Game 6, Hakeem's got the ball.
Cartwright is on him.
He fakes, then he spins.
Grant and Pippen shore up both sides, another fake, a near foul by the Dream.
Starks and Mason break free. The Dream bullets the pass to Starks.
Starks goes for the pull up jumper.
It's no good.
But wait ...
Tipped in by Olajuwon!
The New York Knicks win the series.
It's all over... Hakeem Olajuwon has led his men to the NBA Finals."

[TitleMaster]

from other thread...

This is how the Knicks win the EC Semis or Finals against the Bulls, to highlight Olajuwon repertoire.

"The Clock is winding down, the final possession of Game 6, Hakeem's got the ball.
Cartwright is on him.
He fakes, then he spins.
Grant and Pippen shore up both sides, another fake, a near foul by the Dream.
Starks and Mason break free. The Dream bullets the pass to Starks.
Starks goes for the pull up jumper.
It's no good.
But wait ...
Tipped in by Olajuwon!
The New York Knicks win the series.
It's all over... Hakeem Olajuwon has led his men to the NBA Finals."

[GreenFaith1819]

This is how the Knicks win the EC Semis or Finals against the Bulls, to highlight Olajuwon repertoire.

"The Clock is winding down, the final possession of Game 6, Hakeem's got the ball.
Cartwright is on him.
He fakes, then he spins.
Grant and Pippen shore up both sides, another fake, a near foul by the Dream.
Starks and Mason break free. The Dream bullets the pass to Starks.
Starks goes for the pull up jumper.
It's no good.
But wait ...
Tipped in by Olajuwon!
The New York Knicks win the series.
It's all over... Hakeem Olajuwon has led his men to the NBA Finals."

And that's probably how it would've went, too.

Hakeem was just too agile a Center to keep off the boards. Ewing could certainly slow him down, but Hakeem was a beast to deal with.

[Celtics17]

Did someone on page 2 actually say that Hakeem was definitely a top 3 center all time and probably top 2 behind Russ? Come on man. Do you really think Hakeem was better then Wilt? Sure, Hakeem had a variety of excellent moves around the basket but who do you think would score more effectively there? Who is the better rebounder? The better offensive player or for that matter defensive player? I say one on one and Hakeem is lucky to get into double figures in scoring and probably would get 1/3 of his shots blocked. Wilt was way, way too much for Hakeem to handle. He was bigger (by a lot), stronger beyond compare, faster, probably quicker. My how time changes things.

[GreenFaith1819]

Did someone on page 2 actually say that Hakeem was definitely a top 3 center all time and probably top 2 behind Russ? Come on man. Do you really think Hakeem was better then Wilt? Sure, Hakeem had a variety of excellent moves around the basket but who do you think would score more effectively there? Who is the better rebounder? The better offensive player or for that matter defensive player? I say one on one and Hakeem is lucky to get into double figures in scoring and probably would get 1/3 of his shots blocked. Wilt was way, way too much for Hakeem to handle. He was bigger (by a lot), stronger beyond compare, faster, probably quicker. My how time changes things.

Yes - Hakeem was better than Wilt...a better teammate, better passer, and better defender. And more agile.

Wilt was just BIG...Hakeem was Big, Agile, and quick - with an array of low-post moves that would put Shake and Bake out of business.

Who do you think Kobe stole "Dream Shake" from?

[Celtics17]

Yeah, Hakeem was more agile then Wilt and Wilt was only big. You need to review a little background on the man before you say that!!

[Jon]

Did someone on page 2 actually say that Hakeem was definitely a top 3 center all time and probably top 2 behind Russ? Come on man. Do you really think Hakeem was better then Wilt? Sure, Hakeem had a variety of excellent moves around the basket but who do you think would score more effectively there? Who is the better rebounder? The better offensive player or for that matter defensive player? I say one on one and Hakeem is lucky to get into double figures in scoring and probably would get 1/3 of his shots blocked. Wilt was way, way too much for Hakeem to handle. He was bigger (by a lot), stronger beyond compare, faster, probably quicker. My how time changes things.

Yes - Hakeem was better than Wilt...a better teammate, better passer, and better defender. And more agile.

Wilt was just BIG...Hakeem was Big, Agile, and quick - with an array of low-post moves that would put Shake and Bake out of business.

Who do you think Kobe stole "Dream Shake" from?

I'm not sure Hakeem makes my top 5 centers.  Russell, Wilt, and Jabbar are head and shoulder above Hakeem.  After that you could make a case for Hakeem, but I think you could also make a case for Shaq, George Mikan, or even Tim Duncan, who for all the times he was called a power forward, probably played more center. 

And while you can wax poetic about Hakeem having crap teams, I personally believe the mid '90s was the nadir of basketball quality.  Sure, he went to the Finals in 1994 with Otis Thorpe, Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, and Vernon Maxwell, but he also played against Patrick Ewing and the likes of John Starks, Charles Oakley, and Hubert Davis. 

I mean outside of Hakeem and Ewing, no one else on either of those teams could crack our starting rotation, and each team would be lucky if half of the rest of their starters could even crack our playoff rotation. 

[GreenFaith1819]

Did someone on page 2 actually say that Hakeem was definitely a top 3 center all time and probably top 2 behind Russ? Come on man. Do you really think Hakeem was better then Wilt? Sure, Hakeem had a variety of excellent moves around the basket but who do you think would score more effectively there? Who is the better rebounder? The better offensive player or for that matter defensive player? I say one on one and Hakeem is lucky to get into double figures in scoring and probably would get 1/3 of his shots blocked. Wilt was way, way too much for Hakeem to handle. He was bigger (by a lot), stronger beyond compare, faster, probably quicker. My how time changes things.

Yes - Hakeem was better than Wilt...a better teammate, better passer, and better defender. And more agile.

Wilt was just BIG...Hakeem was Big, Agile, and quick - with an array of low-post moves that would put Shake and Bake out of business.

Who do you think Kobe stole "Dream Shake" from?

I'm not sure Hakeem makes my top 5 centers.  Russell, Wilt, and Jabbar are head and shoulder above Hakeem.  After that you could make a case for Hakeem, but I think you could also make a case for Shaq, George Mikan, or even Tim Duncan, who for all the times he was called a power forward, probably played more center. 

And while you can wax poetic about Hakeem having crap teams, I personally believe the mid '90s was the nadir of basketball quality.  Sure, he went to the Finals in 1994 with Otis Thorpe, Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, and Vernon Maxwell, but he also played against Patrick Ewing and the likes of John Starks, Charles Oakley, and Hubert Davis. 

I mean outside of Hakeem and Ewing, no one else on either of those teams could crack our starting rotation, and each team would be lucky if half of the rest of their starters could even crack our playoff rotation. 

I understand your rankings, but it's impossible to change my mind about Hakeem being the best All-Around Center. He was.

Wilt? Truly a Great One, but not as talented as Hakeem. Russell? The best Defensive Center.

I think your point is All Time, though, and I can understand that. To be honest, I was thinking in frameset of 90's until now.

One point I didn't want to bring up, though, because it may lessen the legacy of Russell and Wilt: There were not as many centers in the game that could compete with those two. IMO, I think the age of Centers were from 80's to 90's, and a few over the last 10 years (Yao, Dikembe, Zo, Shaq).

But again - my outlook is from my 20 year or so frame of reference.

[BballTim]

Did someone on page 2 actually say that Hakeem was definitely a top 3 center all time and probably top 2 behind Russ? Come on man. Do you really think Hakeem was better then Wilt? Sure, Hakeem had a variety of excellent moves around the basket but who do you think would score more effectively there? Who is the better rebounder? The better offensive player or for that matter defensive player? I say one on one and Hakeem is lucky to get into double figures in scoring and probably would get 1/3 of his shots blocked. Wilt was way, way too much for Hakeem to handle. He was bigger (by a lot), stronger beyond compare, faster, probably quicker. My how time changes things.

  You realize that Wilt was only an inch or so taller than Hakeem, right? Stronger, yes. Faster or quicker, no. You have to remember that Wilt was playing against a lot of 6'8 and 6'9 centers. You don't think Hakeem would have been dominant against players 4-5 inches shorter than him?

[GreenFaith1819]

Did someone on page 2 actually say that Hakeem was definitely a top 3 center all time and probably top 2 behind Russ? Come on man. Do you really think Hakeem was better then Wilt? Sure, Hakeem had a variety of excellent moves around the basket but who do you think would score more effectively there? Who is the better rebounder? The better offensive player or for that matter defensive player? I say one on one and Hakeem is lucky to get into double figures in scoring and probably would get 1/3 of his shots blocked. Wilt was way, way too much for Hakeem to handle. He was bigger (by a lot), stronger beyond compare, faster, probably quicker. My how time changes things.

  You realize that Wilt was only an inch or so taller than Hakeem, right? Stronger, yes. Faster or quicker, no. You have to remember that Wilt was playing against a lot of 6'8 and 6'9 centers. You don't think Hakeem would have been dominant against players 4-5 inches shorter than him?

And your point, BBallTim, makes Bill Russell look even more Fantastic - here was a man that was 6'9" going toe to toe with 7'2" Wilt..and he still blocked his shot from time to time. Bill Russell just had incredible timing...he had long arms, too, but the man just studied Defense.

And Bill had something that I don't think Hakeem acquired until much later in his career - the ability to make his teammates better.

From the few clips I've seen of Russell, he had "It".

[housecall]

only on celticsblog will u read that mj is essentially over rated.   

god i hate the dog days of summer.

TP...someone need to put down the pipe and step away from the computer.lol  

[GreenFaith1819]

only on celticsblog will u read that mj is essentially over rated.   

god i hate the dog days of summer.

TP...someone need to put down the pipe and step away from the computer.lol  

Haha - you think CelticsBlog is jumping? You should stroll over to Silver Screen and Roll....Very Interesting reactions to us signing Shaq over there.

MIA? You know their Bandwagons are in full effect.

David Stern is as happy as a Pig in Slop with all of the NBA activity over the last several months. Any bit of news like what we've seen since July just keeps folks talking about the NBA - with NFL season right around the corner.

[TitleMaster]

Unfortunately, Hakeem is separate by Wilt and Russell by a whole generation of players. Likewise, at the same time, the Kareem who played alongside Magic was in his late 30s by the mid-80s. He was also far removed from his prime, the Bucks runs of the 70s.

Thus, I contend that the cluster of centers from Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Unseld, Gilmore, Walton, to Cowens can only really be compared to one another during the pre-80s eras.

The era of Hakeem includes the latter halves of the careers of Parish, Lanier, Moses, Cartwright and then the prime careers of Robinson, Alonzo, Shaq, and Ewing. Among this 1980s to present time category, he was the most talented and capable player of the lot.

[wdleehi]

This make little sense to me.

When the Knicks and Rockets played each other in the Finals, they were very similar teams.


Defensive teams built around a C.

Stark - Mad Max
Oakley - Thorpe

Both had multiple PGs.



The next year, he got Drexler, a far better player then Ewing ever had.


So why didn't the rockets meet the Bulls?

Every full year Jordon played in his prime once he won a title ended with him in the finals and winning a title.


Only other player comparable with that type of run is Russel.

[GreenFaith1819]

This make little sense to me.

When the Knicks and Rockets played each other in the Finals, they were very similar teams.


Defensive teams built around a C.

Stark - Mad Max
Oakley - Thorpe

Both had multiple PGs.



The next year, he got Drexler, a far better player then Ewing ever had.


So why didn't the rockets meet the Bulls?

Every full year Jordon played in his prime once he won a title ended with him in the finals and winning a title.


Only other player comparable with that type of run is Russel.

I think the gist of the conversation was that NY had a Defensive-Minded team, while HOU had a Defensive-Minded Center. HOU did have fine players, but NY was known as a tough, physical defensive squad all-around.