Tired of Jordan's Legacy, the Bulls were the best defensive team of the 90s.

[guava_wrench]

Realistically, if he didn't retire, they could have won eight titles in a row.  I don't care how weak the league is (and it was weak), that's very impressive, and has only been done once in organized sports (the Celtics title teams led by Russell.)

And I would add that had the Bulls not broken up that team when they did, and had Jordan not retired a 2nd time, they probably would have got at least one more against the Spurs.  I think it would have taken Kobe and Shaq to finally stop what would then have been an aging Bulls team.  So 9 Championships in a row

I love these "league was weak" arguments. What does that even mean? Much weaker in Russell's time because there weren't enough great athletes interested in basketball.

[Who]

Realistically, if he didn't retire, they could have won eight titles in a row.  I don't care how weak the league is (and it was weak), that's very impressive, and has only been done once in organized sports (the Celtics title teams led by Russell.)

And I would add that had the Bulls not broken up that team when they did, and had Jordan not retired a 2nd time, they probably would have got at least one more against the Spurs.  I think it would have taken Kobe and Shaq to finally stop what would then have been an aging Bulls team.  So 9 Championships in a row

Yeah, I think they take down the Spurs too. That San Antonio team would have struggled greatly with the Bulls wing defenders. I can't see that Spurs team being effective enough offensively to take down the Bulls + their wing players were old and fairly mediocre defensively (Elie + Elliott + J.Jackson) so Pippen and Jordan have major mismatches.

The 1995 Rockets would have given the Bulls a serious run for their money though. They would have been the Bulls toughest opponent by a large margin. Hakeem Olajuwon always gave the Bulls major problems.

The Rockets would have been especially tough if Horace Grant still left for Orlando that summer although that may have never happened if Jordan stayed (no Rodman/Bulls era?).

[TitleMaster]

2) The notion that Hakeem and Jordan would "never have matched up" because they play different positions is silly.  If that was the case, then Bird and Magic never matched up either.

Bird's unofficially a point forward and Magic, 6'8" point guard. They match up much more than you think in terms of their overall fit with their respective teams. Likewise, both Bird and Magic had key defenders like Maxwell or Cooper, to take the one-on-one defensive load off them. Thus, in real life, both Magic and Bird were the centerpieces of their teams' playmaking and scoring prowess.

Thus, if Hakeem were on the Knicks, he'd also have his Mason & Oakley, just like MJ had his Pippen & Grant. This way, the two super players would be able to highlight their offensive games over one another, since a center's defensive tasks differ considerably from that of a perimeter player. In Hakeem's case, however, it would be a clear mismatch against the likes of Cartwright and Grant and he'd be scoring like none other.

[Jon]

Realistically, if he didn't retire, they could have won eight titles in a row.  I don't care how weak the league is (and it was weak), that's very impressive, and has only been done once in organized sports (the Celtics title teams led by Russell.)

And I would add that had the Bulls not broken up that team when they did, and had Jordan not retired a 2nd time, they probably would have got at least one more against the Spurs.  I think it would have taken Kobe and Shaq to finally stop what would then have been an aging Bulls team.  So 9 Championships in a row

I love these "league was weak" arguments. What does that even mean? Much weaker in Russell's time because there weren't enough great athletes interested in basketball.

What you're overlooking is that in Russell's time there were far fewer teams.  For instance, there were only EIGHT teams in 1960.  So yes, there were fewer good players in the world, but there were about 1/4 of the amount of teams.  So as the talent pool expanded, so did the league. 

I think the '90s was an exception and the worst decade of NBA basketball.  The league had expanded out of control and there were a ton of high school and underclassmen jumping to the NBA.  Thus, there weren't enough great players to fill all those teams and there were a lot of roster spots being taken up by guys who either couldn't play or were developing for years.  Our own Jermaine O'Neal is a great example: he took years before he even played, let alone became a star. 

[dlpin]

Anyone who thinks that Jordan  is just "maybe on of the top 10" is insane.

And as bad as the 90s were, the early 2000s were worse. Just look at the finals.

[Celtics4ever]

Fewer teams does not mean less talent.  The league had better players before all this expansion crap.   Almost all the guys could shoot.   All=Americans could not even break into the league.

[BballTim]

Realistically, if he didn't retire, they could have won eight titles in a row.  I don't care how weak the league is (and it was weak), that's very impressive, and has only been done once in organized sports (the Celtics title teams led by Russell.)

And I would add that had the Bulls not broken up that team when they did, and had Jordan not retired a 2nd time, they probably would have got at least one more against the Spurs.  I think it would have taken Kobe and Shaq to finally stop what would then have been an aging Bulls team.  So 9 Championships in a row

I love these "league was weak" arguments. What does that even mean? Much weaker in Russell's time because there weren't enough great athletes interested in basketball.

What you're overlooking is that in Russell's time there were far fewer teams.  For instance, there were only EIGHT teams in 1960.  So yes, there were fewer good players in the world, but there were about 1/4 of the amount of teams.  So as the talent pool expanded, so did the league. 

I think the '90s was an exception and the worst decade of NBA basketball.  The league had expanded out of control and there were a ton of high school and underclassmen jumping to the NBA.  Thus, there weren't enough great players to fill all those teams and there were a lot of roster spots being taken up by guys who either couldn't play or were developing for years.  Our own Jermaine O'Neal is a great example: he took years before he even played, let alone became a star. 

  The late 70s, right before Bird and Magic came into the league? Those were some bad years.

[EDWARDO]

You miss the whole point of Michael Jordan, if not competitive basketball, completely.

The Bulls were a great defensive team for the same reasons the Celtics went from being the worst defensive team in the league to one of the best of all-time.

They had a player of such competitive will, desire, leadership, focus and intensity, it lifted everyone else to the highest possible level defensively.

For us it is KG.

For the Bulls it was Jordan.

Everyone knows this. His intensity and desire to win were legendary. He was not just the best offensive player in the league and the best defensive player in the league.

He was also the player that LIFTED EVERYONE AROUND HIM TO HIGHER PLACES.

That's the legacy of Michael Jordan.

Look at some of the teams he won with, some of the starters on those teams.

First, I think that guys like Grant, Rodman, Kukoc and ESPECIALLY Pippen were able to flourish next to him in ways they wouldn't have next to anyone else. Rodman melted down with the Spurs and Detroit. People forget that Pippen was awful in big games, downright SCARED for years in the playoffs. I think if he was drafted by the Nets and played on sub .500 teams for the first 5 years there's a real chance he would never have been a HOFer.

But really, look at the other guys on those teams that started and played big roles... frankly, all of them sucked playing in any other circumstance other than next to Jordan:

Wennington
Longley
Scott Williams - FA bust
Ron Harper (post injury)
Stacey King
John Paxson - cut by SA
Will Perdue
An Ancient Bill Cartwright
Jason Caffery
Kerr
Craig Hodges
BJ Armstong - I know, he made an All-Star team... probably the worst All Star of all time.

There are some bad players here. Guys like Wennington, Longley, Paxson were so limited, they could only play with a guy who would get them open looks. Those teams had some of the worst benches of all-time to win titles.

He's the best of all-time, hands down. I think you are about the only person that doesn't see the link between the defenisve greatness of those teams and the intensity and desire to win of Michael Jordan.

[Celtics4ever]

Jordan demanded effort from his team mates.  I've read he would clock peeps who would not play hard.  Take a night off and Jordan was ready to fight you.

[TitleMaster]

I contend that the Bulls were the best defensive team of the 90s, with an alpha male scoring franchise player.

Here's the alternate reality... the b-ball version of The Twilight Zone.

It's the summer of 1991, Michael Jordan just won his first championship. Coach Riley plans to join the Knicks and make 'em the best defensive team, at par with the Bull's defenses, if not a tad better.

Something strange happens... Patrick Ewing finds himself in Houston and Hakeem Olajuwon finds himself in New York City.  Everyone checks the rosters and it's confirmed, Olajawon plays for the Knicks and Ewing plays for the Rockets.

Riley starts his boot camps. He realizes something... Olajuwon is already the best defensive (& offensive) player so that the camp is really for McDaniels, Oakley, Starks, Mason, Jackson, and the boys to pick up the pace.

Then, throughout the year, you hear that announcer say. " {Starks, Jackson, Oakley} misses. Wait! Tipped in by Olajuwon", again and again. Suddenly, you see it, a great defensive team forms with a killer offense. The ball finds it's way to Hakeem, he draws help defense, then when a third defender comes around, Hakeem finds the closest open man to the basket, bullets the ball, and re-positions himself to grab the offensive rebound if it's a miss.

The results ... Cartwright is flummoxed in every way. Even with Grant and Pippen shoring up his sides, he can't do squat about the Shake 'n Bake dream moves. Then, with Hakeem, Oakley, Mason, and McDaniels clamping down the Bull's frontline, Jordan is asked to carry the squad, game after game. Sure, Michael puts up 35, 42, 43, 30, 51, 33 points but it's over in 6. Knicks advance to the ECF and then to the NBA finals, winning their first title since the Walt Frazier/Willis Reed era.

Then, the following year, similar circumstances ensue. The Bulls are beaten in 5 or 6. The Hakeem Knicks era begins. From '92 to '98, for seven straight seasons, the Knicks dominate the finals. Finally, after numerous personnel changes, etc, the Bulls finally beat the Knicks in '99, as Hakeem's legs fail him and he plays limited minutes for the season and retires at the end with 7 rings.

[dark_lord]

sigh...

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=40546.msg815250#msg815250

[GreenFaith1819]

Wow - I think that with Hakeem in the same conference as Michael, he would've definitely had a HUGE roadblock in your scenario, Titlemaster.

Patrick was one of the best centers of all-time, and a great defender. But Hakeem took defense to a whole other level. Michael and Scotty would've had a lot fewer "Poster-Moments" with Hakeem in NY.

I think (IMHO) that the only other center that was better at Defense than Hakeem was Bill Russell.

[fairweatherfan]

If Michael Jordan had been born with flipper hands, he would have won ZERO titles - FACT. 

And even if he somehow pulled it off, you'd never see him wearing the ring around.

[TitleMaster]

Patrick was one of the best centers of all-time, and a great defender.

Looks, despite the fact that Ewing grew up around here, I'd say he's no better than 'Zo, as far as a center goes. And he's also not better than Robinson either.

I'd say that Ewing was a younger, better Cartwright with a few added moves. 

Hakeem>>Robinson>Zo=Ewing>Cartwright

[TitleMaster]

The key here is which combination of players, from the Bulls, could stopped Olajuwon in the post or even slightly lower his shooting percentage?

I'd say no one.