Tired of Jordan's Legacy, the Bulls were the best defensive team of the 90s.

[BballTim]

OK, OK.  However, let's also keep in mind that if Jordan hadn't retired, Hakeem likely would've won zero rings.  If that's the case, is the Dirk comparison all that far off, especially if we stop romanticizing the past? 

I agree that I went overboard; however, I stand by my point that both of Hakeem's title teams (particularly the first) would've lost to most teams that have ever even made the NBA Finals. 

  Oh, I agree that was a historically weak title team. And I'll stop "romanticizing the past" if you can show me that Dirk was fairly equivalent to Hakeem on the defensive end.

[KCattheStripe]

 Probably not a top 20, and maybe not even a top 25.  
 

That right there is where your argument gets silly. No center, and I mean nocenter in the history of the NBA, has ever dominated games at both  ends of the court like Hakeem. He is the quintessential all time great on terrible teams and he still won 2 rings despite it. If Hakeem has not even a Robin, if he had a Krypto the superdog from 1986-1993 he wins at least two more titles and gets remembered as the best or second best center ever.


For stats sake, mostly because I'm not as good with advanced stat: 10th in points scored, 9th in total steals and 1st in blocked shots.



All he needed.

[jacksmedulaoblongata]

I'm gonna say it, aside from Bird's "God disguised as Michael Jordan" remark during the '86 playoffs, his Airness was that, a lot of hot air.

MJ's true stature is that of Elgin Baylor, Dr J, Dominique Wilkens, and to a lesser extent... Bernard King. These are basically high volume, highlight reel, scoring extravaganzas.

I'm gonna use the 1994 Bulls, which had the same roster of supporting players, as the '93 championship squad. With the scoring load shifted to Pippen/Grant, and the open jumpers deferred to Kokoc and Kerr, the '94 Bulls won 55 wins, 2 less than the prior season.

In Game 5 of the Knicks series, Pippen got hit with a phantom foul. If the Bulls were a class of clowns, they would have lost their defensive fortitude and it would have ended in 6. Instead, they clamped down and pushed it a full 7 games. And finally, that game 7 was decided by Ewing's single swoosh.

Now, let's use this substitution, if Elgin Baylor, Dr J, or 'Nique were on the Bulls, would it be not be inconceivable that they could have gotten a few more points (w/ the opponent playing tough defense) and made it to the finals, just like the prior year? Granted, this would be difficult as the SF position was already taken, however, if the former NBA greats could have been retrofitted into a SG role, it might have happened.

[TitleMaster]

First of all, Jordan would not meet Olajuwon because Jordan's a guard and Hakeem... a center.

Thus, the only way for this to have happened is to use a time machine and switch Ewing for Hakeem. Now, with that in mind, I'd say that the Hakeem-ified Knicks would have beaten the Bulls in both '92 and '93, 4-2. And then, they'd have beaten the Spurs in '95 (since I don't think Ewing gets 'em through the WCF), and the Bulls again when Rodman joins 'em in '96.

Here's why... in Houston, Hakeem had to play a lot of help defense for the other forwards and guards. In effect, he was carrying the Rockets on both offense and defense. In NYK, along with Riley's defensive schemes, he'd have the likes of Oakley and Mason, doing a lot of the grunt work, and thus, allowing him to shake 'n bake on Cartwright, Grant, and others. In other words, the Bull's frontline would have nothing they could do to him. Remember, it was Mason's help defense which kept Hakeem working in the '94 finals. No one else on the Knicks could handle him in any way.

[KCattheStripe]

First of all, Jordan would not meet Olajuwon because Jordan's a guard and Hakeem... a center.

Thus, the only way for this to have happened is to use a time machine and switch Ewing for Hakeem. Now, with that in mind, I'd say that the Hakeem-ified Knicks would have beaten the Bulls in both '92 and '93, 4-2. And then, they'd have beaten the Spurs in '95 (since I don't think Ewing gets 'em through the WCF), and the Bulls again when Rodman joins 'em in '96.

Here's why... in Houston, Hakeem had to play a lot of help defense for the other forwards and guards. In effect, he was carrying the Rockets on both offense and defense. In NYK, along with Riley's defensive schemes, he'd have the likes of Oakley and Mason, doing a lot of the grunt work, and thus, allowing him to shake 'n bake on Cartwright, Grant, and others. In other words, the Bull's frontline would have nothing they could do to him. Remember, it was Mason's help defense which kept Hakeem working in the '94 finals. No one else on the Knicks could handle him in any way.

I'm KCatthestripe and In approve this message.

[Celtics4ever]

I assume this thread was started by a LeBron James fan angered at MJ's comments.  LeBron is no MJ, he is little more than a beefed Dominique Wilkins who can pass the ball a bit better.

Stern gave them all the star calls.  MJ pushed off on Byron Russell when he hit the game clincher that one year and no call.  LeBron can't capitalize on all the calls he gets.

Clutchwise, not even Kobe could touch him.

[Roy Hobbs]

Here's the thing:  being the best defensive team of the 90s on its own isn't enough to win titles. 

I mean, who was the best defensive team of the 1980s?  It's probably one of either Philly or Milwaukee, based upon defensive rating.  How many combined championships did they win in the decade?  One. 

Winning titles generally requires having an elite player, and that's what Jordan provided the Bulls.  Realistically, if he didn't retire, they could have won eight titles in a row.  I don't care how weak the league is (and it was weak), that's very impressive, and has only been done once in organized sports (the Celtics title teams led by Russell.)

[TitleMaster]

Here's the thing:  being the best defensive team of the 90s on its own isn't enough to win titles.  

Winning titles generally requires having an elite player, and that's what Jordan provided the Bulls.  Realistically, if he didn't retire, they could have won eight titles in a row.

Yes, this is my argument... a Hakeem Knicks also wins 6-8 titles in the 90s because the Knicks were a great defensive team, however, they lacked the true elite player which Ewing was not.

And the Bulls, being another defensive team, simply needed MJ to seal the deal.

[Dchuck]

Olajuwon, Barkley and Malone on par with Dirk? 

In terms of achievement, I'd say yes certainly with Barkley and Malone.  Dirk has been a perennial All Star putting up huge numbers on a consistently fantastic regular season team.  Like Barkley, he made it to the Finals once, and lost.  All Malone did was make it one more time.  If Malone and Barkley were even close to being on the next level of NBA elite, they would've consistently been in the NBA Finals, even if they were losing to MJ's Bulls. 

Olajuwon is a little different.  He made it in the '80s too.  But I find it troubling that he wasn't good enough to get to the Finals more than twice in the '90s.  Also, his first Rockets title team might've been the worst team ever to win an NBA Championship.  In many ways, they weren't much better than the 2001 Sixers.  The difference is that they didn't have to play Shaq and Kobe in the Finals. 

As to my larger point in my first post, I think Jordan was simply born at the right time.  He's an all time great no doubt, and he certainly is above Dominique and Bernard King.  However, I think if he was born 10 years earlier or 10 years later and had to play against Bird, Johnson, and Erving in their prime or Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan in their prime, he probably would've won have the titles he did and would simply be talked about as a top 10 player, not necessarily the consensus number 1. 

I mean how many titles would Larry have won if he played in the '90s and didn't have to worry about Julius Erving on the way to the Finals and Magic and Kareem in the Finals? 

You need to go back and look at how horrendous Olajuwon's teams were after Ralph Sampson. And you're right, he didn't run into Kobe and Shaq, he ran into Shaq, Penny and Horace Grant and swept the crud out of them. And carrying the worst team to win a title in recent memory should be a bonus for the player not a negative. To compare Olajuwon, who is arguably the most dominant center of the past 30 years, to Dirk is silly.

I'll partially agree.  Shaq wasn't the player in the mid '90s that he became in the 2000s, Penny wasn't close to Kobe, and Horace Grant was at the end of his career.  So that was hardly an epic team. 

But Olajuwon should be above them.  Still, I don't put him as a top 10 player by any stretch, probably not a top 20, and maybe not even a top 25. 

Regardless, even supposing him to be a top 20 player of all time, Jordan never had to face him in the playoffs ever.  So my larger point remains: Jordan never had to face a player anywhere near his league during any of his title runs.  You can't say that about any other top 10 player. 

Olajuwon is clearly one of the top 20 players of all time and probably top 4 center of all time.  He dominated every center of his generation going back to Kareem, Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq.

As far as your larger point: Jordan never having to face a player in his league?  

Thats because he is in a league of his own.

[TitleMaster]

Next, Nowitzki cannot play a high level of defense. He's a classic 7 footer who hits his outside shot. There's no comparison to Hakeem.

Thus, he needs to be on another top defensive squad with one other scorer like a Rip Hamilton.

[Jon]

Two quick points:

1) It wasn't my original intention to throw Hakeem in there.  I was trying to simply make the point that Jordan faced subpar competition.  Hakeem never faced Jordan, so the point is truly moot.  I do think he's dramatically better than Dirk.  However, as much as I don't like Dirk as a player, given his All Star appearances and regular season success, I wouldn't be surprised to see him talked about in the same breath as Barkley and Malone 25 years from now.  

2) The notion that Hakeem and Jordan would "never have matched up" because they play different positions is silly.  If that was the case, then Bird and Magic never matched up either.  

The larger point is that when the game is on the line, superstars take over and will their teams to win.  

Jordan is without a doubt a top 10 player of all time.  He may be number one.  But if we were to list the other ten on the list, none of them ever played against him at the top of their games: Russell, Chamberlain, Bird, Magic, Robertson, Erving, Jabbar, O'Neal, Duncan, Kobe (that's 10 + Jordan, so take your pick).  Thus, he consistently faces teams with inferior stars who can't take their games to the next level like he can.  That's why he faced different teams 5 of the 6 times in the Finals.  

[BballTim]

As far as your larger point: Jordan never having to face a player in his league?  

Thats because he is in a league of his own.

  Not really. Take Magic Johnson out of the league, for instance, and Bird's on 5 titles (4 in a row) when the injuries kick in after 87. Take Bird out and Magic's on title 6 (also 4 in a row) after 88.

[Celtics17]

Olajuwon was a great,great center. I remember one time adding up his steals and blocks and the number was at or near 500 total between the two. That being said, he is certainly not hte most dominant offensive/defensive center to ever play. That distinction belongs to Wilt. I would say that Olajuwon vs. Wilt and Hakeem doesnt hardly get into double digits scoring and is completely destroyed on D and on the boards.

I have maintained for years that Pippen was at times the second best player in the game, right behind Jordan. He did a little of everything and lots of it too, if his team needed it. He is probably Jordan's olnly peer that could have guarded him well and Jordan beneffited from Pippen being on his team. Someone said that Pip wouldnt be a HOF player  w/out Jordan and that may be so but MJ doesnt win a single ring in Chicago w/out him either.

Finally, I dont know who said that Jordan wasn't all that great but he needs to watch some old game film. MJ was the best player that I have seen in my 25 years of active NBA viewing. He knew what it took to win and did it. That might sound easy enough but most players don't even understand how to win much less how to do it at exactly the right moment. John Wooden once said that no player was quicker mentally then Larry Bird. He knew how to win and when to win and that is a tough combination to find in the NBA.

[get_banners]

hakeem is one of the more underrated players in nba history (by casual fans). his offensive game was ridiculous. on offense, there was never a center with his footwork or number of moves. i mean, he made great defensive centers like ewing and robinson look silly. completely unstoppable. and i'd say he's unquestionably one of the 3 greatest defensive centers of all time. russell is obviously number one, but hakeem might be #2.

[slam]

Realistically, if he didn't retire, they could have won eight titles in a row.  I don't care how weak the league is (and it was weak), that's very impressive, and has only been done once in organized sports (the Celtics title teams led by Russell.)

And I would add that had the Bulls not broken up that team when they did, and had Jordan not retired a 2nd time, they probably would have got at least one more against the Spurs.  I think it would have taken Kobe and Shaq to finally stop what would then have been an aging Bulls team.  So 9 Championships in a row