Tired of Jordan's Legacy, the Bulls were the best defensive team of the 90s.

[action781]

Did someone on page 2 actually say that Hakeem was definitely a top 3 center all time and probably top 2 behind Russ? Come on man. Do you really think Hakeem was better then Wilt? Sure, Hakeem had a variety of excellent moves around the basket but who do you think would score more effectively there? Who is the better rebounder? The better offensive player or for that matter defensive player? I say one on one and Hakeem is lucky to get into double figures in scoring and probably would get 1/3 of his shots blocked. Wilt was way, way too much for Hakeem to handle. He was bigger (by a lot), stronger beyond compare, faster, probably quicker. My how time changes things.

Yes - Hakeem was better than Wilt...a better teammate, better passer, and better defender. And more agile.

Wilt was just BIG...Hakeem was Big, Agile, and quick - with an array of low-post moves that would put Shake and Bake out of business.

Who do you think Kobe stole "Dream Shake" from?

I'm not sure Hakeem makes my top 5 centers.  Russell, Wilt, and Jabbar are head and shoulder above Hakeem.  After that you could make a case for Hakeem, but I think you could also make a case for Shaq, George Mikan, or even Tim Duncan, who for all the times he was called a power forward, probably played more center. 

And while you can wax poetic about Hakeem having crap teams, I personally believe the mid '90s was the nadir of basketball quality.  Sure, he went to the Finals in 1994 with Otis Thorpe, Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, and Vernon Maxwell, but he also played against Patrick Ewing and the likes of John Starks, Charles Oakley, and Hubert Davis. 

I mean outside of Hakeem and Ewing, no one else on either of those teams could crack our starting rotation, and each team would be lucky if half of the rest of their starters could even crack our playoff rotation. 

I'm relatively young (27) so didn't start watching basketball until the early 90's.  In a very curious, non-mocking tone, I'm wondering, do you feel like you watched a lot of Hakeem in the 90's?  I know I watched a lot of him.  I never saw Mikan play, but I can't believe you're putting Duncan up there with Hakeem.  Duncan was a great player, I'd even say top 15 of all time maybe.  But I recall Duncan's prime and Hakeem's prime very clearly.  Hakeem would have dominated Duncan.  Do you remember what Hakeem did to Ewing, Shaq, and most impressively MVP David Robinson in the mid '90s in the playoffs?  These were the best centers in the NBA and all good defenders as well.  And Hakeem absolutely dominated them.  Duncan played fantastic in the playoffs, but never dominated a quality defensive PF the way Hakeem did his opponents.  The only quality defensive PF I remember him matching up against was 'Sheed and he wasn't dominant at all in that series.

[action781]

I would like to say that I've been watching a lot of classic NBA games during the lockout and I've been noticing the evolution of help defense and I think the '90s Bulls look like the first team to really understand what are now common modern day help defense rotations.  These rotations were nonexistent in the '80s.

[wdleehi]

Did someone on page 2 actually say that Hakeem was definitely a top 3 center all time and probably top 2 behind Russ? Come on man. Do you really think Hakeem was better then Wilt? Sure, Hakeem had a variety of excellent moves around the basket but who do you think would score more effectively there? Who is the better rebounder? The better offensive player or for that matter defensive player? I say one on one and Hakeem is lucky to get into double figures in scoring and probably would get 1/3 of his shots blocked. Wilt was way, way too much for Hakeem to handle. He was bigger (by a lot), stronger beyond compare, faster, probably quicker. My how time changes things.

Yes - Hakeem was better than Wilt...a better teammate, better passer, and better defender. And more agile.

Wilt was just BIG...Hakeem was Big, Agile, and quick - with an array of low-post moves that would put Shake and Bake out of business.

Who do you think Kobe stole "Dream Shake" from?

I'm not sure Hakeem makes my top 5 centers.  Russell, Wilt, and Jabbar are head and shoulder above Hakeem.  After that you could make a case for Hakeem, but I think you could also make a case for Shaq, George Mikan, or even Tim Duncan, who for all the times he was called a power forward, probably played more center. 

And while you can wax poetic about Hakeem having crap teams, I personally believe the mid '90s was the nadir of basketball quality.  Sure, he went to the Finals in 1994 with Otis Thorpe, Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, and Vernon Maxwell, but he also played against Patrick Ewing and the likes of John Starks, Charles Oakley, and Hubert Davis. 

I mean outside of Hakeem and Ewing, no one else on either of those teams could crack our starting rotation, and each team would be lucky if half of the rest of their starters could even crack our playoff rotation. 

I'm relatively young (27) so didn't start watching basketball until the early 90's.  In a very curious, non-mocking tone, I'm wondering, do you feel like you watched a lot of Hakeem in the 90's?  I know I watched a lot of him.  I never saw Mikan play, but I can't believe you're putting Duncan up there with Hakeem.  Duncan was a great player, I'd even say top 15 of all time maybe.  But I recall Duncan's prime and Hakeem's prime very clearly.  Hakeem would have dominated Duncan.  Do you remember what Hakeem did to Ewing, Shaq, and most impressively MVP David Robinson in the mid '90s in the playoffs?  These were the best centers in the NBA and all good defenders as well.  And Hakeem absolutely dominated them.  Duncan played fantastic in the playoffs, but never dominated a quality defensive PF the way Hakeem did his opponents.  The only quality defensive PF I remember him matching up against was 'Sheed and he wasn't dominant at all in that series.

I will take Duncan over Hakeem. 


I put Hakeem at the 5th or 6th best C.  (I go back and forth between him and Shaq.  I know he beat Shaq head to head in the finals, but Hakeem was in his prime and Shaq was not in his prime yet.  He was still in the early phases of his game)

Duncan is the best PF of all time.  I put him in the top ten of all time players.

[GreenFaith1819]

Duncan over Dream Shake?

I do suppose that if you swapped out Timmy for Hakeem during HOU's two championships it makes for a compelling scenario, though.

[wdleehi]

Duncan over Dream Shake?

I do suppose that if you swapped out Timmy for Hakeem during HOU's two championships it makes for a compelling scenario, though.

4 rings vs two and didn't need Jordon to retire to get them. 



You can spin things anyway you want.  Duncan faced the other best player of his era and beat him.  (lost to him as well)


Hakeem never had to face the Jordon Bulls in the playoffs.  One of the few greats of that era to be able to say that (and thus, the only other one to lead his team to a title)

[dtrader]

Duncan over Dream Shake?

I do suppose that if you swapped out Timmy for Hakeem during HOU's two championships it makes for a compelling scenario, though.

4 rings vs two and didn't need Jordon to retire to get them. 



You can spin things anyway you want.  Duncan faced the other best player of his era and beat him.  (lost to him as well)


Hakeem never had to face the Jordon Bulls in the playoffs.  One of the few greats of that era to be able to say that (and thus, the only other one to lead his team to a title)

LOL. What are you talking about. Jordans retirement is precisely what it took for both to get there titles.  Please explain what title the Spurs got by defeating Jordan.  The Bulls were defending champs in 1999, but didn't even make the playoffs, cuz MJ retired, and Pip+Worm left.  Lockout or not, the spurs don't win that title if that bulls team is together.  Next time the Spurs won, was 02-03.  Yes Jordan was technically still in the league, but he was 40 years old and playing on the Wizards lol

[GreenFaith1819]

Duncan over Dream Shake?

I do suppose that if you swapped out Timmy for Hakeem during HOU's two championships it makes for a compelling scenario, though.

4 rings vs two and didn't need Jordon to retire to get them. 



You can spin things anyway you want.  Duncan faced the other best player of his era and beat him.  (lost to him as well)


Hakeem never had to face the Jordon Bulls in the playoffs.  One of the few greats of that era to be able to say that (and thus, the only other one to lead his team to a title)

Good Point.

I still believe that Hakeem would've beaten Jordan, though. Michael and his team always had problems with athletic centers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18

And boy - was Hakeem athletic or what. The only thing separating David and Hakeem was that Olajuwon had more post moves than him.

And Duncan had a bit of help from that guy in the vid, too - as well as help from a future HOFer (IMO) in Ginobili.

I loved Duncan, no doubt. Great Big, but to me not better than Dream.

[action781]

Duncan over Dream Shake?

I do suppose that if you swapped out Timmy for Hakeem during HOU's two championships it makes for a compelling scenario, though.

4 rings vs two and didn't need Jordon to retire to get them. 



You can spin things anyway you want.  Duncan faced the other best player of his era and beat him.  (lost to him as well)


Hakeem never had to face the Jordon Bulls in the playoffs.  One of the few greats of that era to be able to say that (and thus, the only other one to lead his team to a title)

Your points sound OK on the surface, but I'm just not buying them.  You say "you can spin however you want".... but it kind of sounds like you are doing some spinning.

I don't see how Hakeem "needed Jordan to retire" to win his 2 rings?  That statement would imply that Jordan was Hakeem's roadblock to winning a title.  The fact is that Jordan's Bulls never beat Hakeem's Rockets in the playoffs so was never his roadblock.  And the two seasons that Hakeem was at his best (and perhaps had the best season of any NBA player ever in '94 being the only player ever to sweep MVP, DPOY, Finals MVP awards), it is far from a certainty that the Rockets couldn't have beat the Bulls w/ Jordan.

I also don't see how the fact that Duncan beat the best player of his era, but Hakeem never facing the best player of his era is conclusive of anything at all?  Dirk beat the best player of his era (Lebron)... does that also make him better than Hakeem?  I find that to be a vague, inconclusive point.

Also mentioned, Timmy had Ginobili and TP alongside him to help him win titles.  Heck, Timmy wasn't even Finals MVP for one of his titles.  And in '05, when Timmy was Finals MVP, his performance wasn't even close to the level of dominance that Hakeem displayed throughout his career.

[wdleehi]

Duncan over Dream Shake?

I do suppose that if you swapped out Timmy for Hakeem during HOU's two championships it makes for a compelling scenario, though.

4 rings vs two and didn't need Jordon to retire to get them. 



You can spin things anyway you want.  Duncan faced the other best player of his era and beat him.  (lost to him as well)


Hakeem never had to face the Jordon Bulls in the playoffs.  One of the few greats of that era to be able to say that (and thus, the only other one to lead his team to a title)

LOL. What are you talking about. Jordans retirement is precisely what it took for both to get there titles.  Please explain what title the Spurs got by defeating Jordan.  The Bulls were defending champs in 1999, but didn't even make the playoffs, cuz MJ retired, and Pip+Worm left.  Lockout or not, the spurs don't win that title if that bulls team is together.  Next time the Spurs won, was 02-03.  Yes Jordan was technically still in the league, but he was 40 years old and playing on the Wizards lol

Jordon's prime was not the same time as Duncan. 

Jordon's prime was the same time as Hakeem. 


The only time Hakeem got through the West and didn't face one of the top player in the era (He did lose to Bird before his prime) was the two years the Bulls teams were effected by Jordon's mid career retirement. 

It is not his fault, but unlike his peers, he did not have to climb the mountain that is Jordon to win a title.