I don't like LBJ but Magic & MJ are full of it

[dlpin]

MJ might not of had a great situation at the time but it was not a bad one, not like LeBron's that is.  

MJ's situation in 1988 wasn't as bad as Lebron's? A 50 win team is "not as bad" as the back to back #1 seed?
In 88 Pippen and Grant were just coming off their rookie seasons and had barely played 20 mins a game. And Pippen was injured.

[guava_wrench]

Great piece on why Magic is a hypocrite on ESPN.  A reader put together a piece that pulls from absolutely hypocritical Magic quotes and compares their supporting casts for their first 7 years:

TrueHoop reader Mike, however, takes special exception to the idea that Johnson would stick with a mediocre roster over playing with superstars. He e-mails:

    As much as I admire and respect these players, it becomes hard to take them seriously when none of them had situations comparable to LeBron, and all of the them got to play with other great, Top-50 All-Time players. The quest to play with other elite talent is basically universal amongst stars, be it Wilt going to join Hal Greer and later Jerry West and Elgin Baylor or all the way up to Kobe openly flirting with the Bulls and Clippers and threatening trade demands until the Lakers acquired Pau Gasol.

    The fact that LeBron simply exercised his rights as a free agent to leave Cleveland to do what countless other players have done, rather than demand trades or refuse to play for the team that drafted him, should not be held against him.

    I'm not even a fan of LeBron, but at this point I think he's getting dumped on pretty unfairly.


And in the case of Magic Johnson, Mike has done his homework. He found a Mike Downey L.A. Times article from 1991:

    Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

    "I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life." Chicago called heads in a 1979 coin flip with Los Angeles for the No. 1 pick in the NBA college draft. It came up tails.

    Johnson signed with the Lakers after his sophomore year of college and proceeded to win five championships. The Bulls picked second, took UCLA's David Greenwood and have won no championships.

    "I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers."


Then Mike gets to comparing the Lakers who played with Johnson in his first seven years to the Cavaliers who played with James over the same period. Johnson's teammates, in aggregate, had:

    * Two first team All-Rookie selections (Byron Scott, James Worthy)
    * 11 All-Star appearances (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar seven times, Norm Nixon twice, Worthy, Jamaal Wilkes)
    * Four All-NBA first team selections (Abdul-Jabbar)
    * Two All-NBA second team selections (Abdul-Jabbar)
    * Five All-Defensive first team selections (Michael Cooper three times, Abdul-Jabbar twice)
    * Four All-Defensive second team selections (Cooper three times, Abdul-Jabbar once)
    * One MVP Award (Abdul-Jabbar)
    * In addition, Abdul-Jabbar, Worthy, Wilkes, Nixon, and Cooper all got votes for MVP at one point in time or the other during Magic's first seven years, and Cooper won defensive player of the year in Johnson's eighth year.


Mike does a similar analysis on James' Cavs' rosters:

    * Zero first team All-Rookie Selections
    * Two All-Star game appearances (Mo Williams, Zydrunas llgauskas)
    * Zero All-NBA first team selection
    * Zero All-NBA second team selections
    * Zero All-Defensive first team selections
    * One All-Defensive second team selection (Anderson Vareajo)
    * Zero MVP Awards

The piece doesn't even factor in the terrible head coach situation LBJ had in Cleveland.  Check out the whole piece here:


http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/18462/magic-johnson-sought-elite-teammates-too


These guys were great players, but they are delusional.  The Chicago quote is a nail in the coffin of his potshot at LeBron.

The root of the problem of all these conversations about Lebron James is that he is being put in a league he doesn't belong in to begin with. I mean c'mon, why is this guy coming up in conversations that involve Bird, Magic, Jordan or Olajuwon? If people saw him for the player that he is and not the player they want or expect him to be than they would see that he's just another all star player changing teams. Now he did conduct himself like a tool but other than that, he's just another all star changing teams.

Man, you are crazy.  A two time reigning MVP is another all-star? 

LeBron will go down as one of the most talented players in NBA history.  Don't ride that hate bandwagon to a foolish conclusion that he's just "another all star".

That's a great article. Really makes Magic seem stupid.

[soap07]

In other words, Jordan and Barkley both had an opportunity to go play with each other.

And how many championships did Barkley win? If he knew at the time that he wouldn't win any championships going back to Philly, do you think he might've played in Chicago? If your answer is still no to that question, than what does that say about Charles?

[Birdbrain]

Over time, pieces were added and the Bulls started making runs...just like Cleveland, which has done absolutely everything possible to bring in talented players to make a run with

I would argue that Chicago was both, a better formed and better coached squad than Cleveland. The reality of the situation was that in the '94 Eastern Semi-Conf, when Jordan was on hiatus, they had almost won. Remember the famous fathom foul against Pippen in Game 5. Well ... that was 'cause the *Jordan rules* weren't in effect that year. And still, the Bulls took it a full 7 games before losing to a 3pt-er by Ewing. I very much suspect that any of the recent Cavs squads would have folded a lot earlier than either game 6 or 7 of any series w/o Lebron. And for the mid-90s Rockets, a Hakeem-free team wouldn't have passed the first round of the playoffs. Sorry, but Cassell wasn't gonna make it happen w/o the big guy around.

I think the big three of MJ, Magic, and Bird were the X-factors which made their very good-to-excellent squads, champions.

No they were the straw that stirred the drink not the x factors like Kobe (I hate saying that).  McHale might be a HOF but, Parish most certainly wouldn't have been without Mr. Bird.  Gasol now is being talked about as HOF..

And the '94 Chicago squad lost in 2nd round and had some very good players (Kukoc) and a Coach some are trying to say is the best ever in a weak league.  It's not hard to see how they made the 2nd round.  They had 0 chance of contending though which is the main point.

[Birdbrain]

Lebron is miore then an all star changin teams! Granted, he is not at Larry's, MJ's or Magic's stature yet but make no mistake, he has that ability. Look at MJ 5 or maybe 6 years into his career. If, as someone above pointed out, Pippen had been a bust then MJ might have gone down as the best scorer the league had seen since Wilt but not it's best player ever.

Give Lebron a couple of years of playing with some real talent and see where he is. If he wins a title averaging 25, 10, and 11 or something around that do you then put him in a little different light? What if he does it multiple times? Then, do you maybe consider him one of the best?

This great debate that always goes on about whether certain statistically dominant players are winners or just numbers players has two sides. Would Wilt have won 11 titles if he and Russ switched teams? I dont know but will absolutely, 100% guarantee you, and I mean guarantee you that Wilt with the C's would have won way more then the two titles that he won not being on the C's.  

No but, Wade might be in the discussion.  Wilt was a career loser and a very apt comparison for LJ in a lot of ways.

[Snakehead]

MJ might not of had a great situation at the time but it was not a bad one, not like LeBron's that is.  

MJ's situation in 1988 wasn't as bad as Lebron's? A 50 win team is "not as bad" as the back to back #1 seed?
In 88 Pippen and Grant were just coming off their rookie seasons and had barely played 20 mins a game. And Pippen was injured.

LeBron has hardly even played alongside promising young talent, so yes it is not as good of a situation (if you look long term).  The Cavs always picked short term solutions or flat out terrible ones (Larry Hughes anyone?).

Who is the best young talent around LeBron when he played in CLE?  Mo Williams?  Delonte? Varejao?  JJ Hickson?  Yeah that's not Grant or Pippen.

Maybe LeBron's teams won more in the regular season, but I don't see how LeBron looks at his teamates and has confidence in them building a dynasty.  It's like Durant in OKC, everyone is patting him on the back for a quick resigning when for any star player in that situation it would be a no-brainer to resign.  They have done an excellent job putting young talent alongside him to grow into a powerhouse team.

[OmarSekou]

The MJ and Magic comments have been blown way out of proportion. They said they played in a different era, which they did. They said the attitude of stars in their era was different, which it was.

They didn't all grow up as friends through AAU, summer camps and have the internet to watch guys and all that. You never knew your competition, only that they were your competition. But if any of those guys had the opportunity to make their team better, they would have. However, because the attitude was you don't become friends with your competition, no guys ever recruited other players.

In those days, superstars were untouchable. And when they were traded it was almost always to better teams.

[dlpin]

LeBron has hardly even played alongside promising young talent, so yes it is not as good of a situation (if you look long term).  The Cavs always picked short term solutions or flat out terrible ones (Larry Hughes anyone?).

Who is the best young talent around LeBron when he played in CLE?  Mo Williams?  Delonte? Varejao?  JJ Hickson?  Yeah that's not Grant or Pippen.

Maybe LeBron's teams won more in the regular season, but I don't see how LeBron looks at his teamates and has confidence in them building a dynasty.  It's like Durant in OKC, everyone is patting him on the back for a quick resigning when for any star player in that situation it would be a no-brainer to resign.  They have done an excellent job putting young talent alongside him to grow into a powerhouse team.

The  bulls starting five in 1988 were Oakley, Brad Sellers, Dave Corzine, and Sam Vincent. The first player off the bench was John Paxson. Pippen and Grant rarely played more than 25 minutes a game as rookies, and they weren't very good at that point.

There is absolutely, positively no question that the 2010 cleveland cavs were in a better situation than the 1988 chicago bulls, as evidenced by the team's records and everything else.

[TitleMaster]

And the '94 Chicago squad lost in 2nd round and had some very good players (Kukoc) and a Coach some are trying to say is the best ever in a weak league.  It's not hard to see how they made the 2nd round.  They had 0 chance of contending though which is the main point.

Zero percent  !

Hold on, they missed going to the ECF by a phantom foul against Pippen. Who didn't see that joke of a call?

Then, in the ECF, it's doubtful that the Pacers would have waltzed over them with their style of defense.

But true, in the finals, Hakeem would own the entire Bull's frontline but then again, perhaps others could have stepped up & kept it an interesting series. Maybe the Bulls could have stopped Cassell and then, the Rockets offense would be simply... "Ball to Hakeem, triple teamed, kick out to Horry or Smith". And after a while, that becomes kinda predictable.

I don't think it's inconceivable that the '94 Bulls could have won it all. Perhaps 35% chance, but not impossible.

[Snakehead]

LeBron has hardly even played alongside promising young talent, so yes it is not as good of a situation (if you look long term).  The Cavs always picked short term solutions or flat out terrible ones (Larry Hughes anyone?).

Who is the best young talent around LeBron when he played in CLE?  Mo Williams?  Delonte? Varejao?  JJ Hickson?  Yeah that's not Grant or Pippen.

Maybe LeBron's teams won more in the regular season, but I don't see how LeBron looks at his teamates and has confidence in them building a dynasty.  It's like Durant in OKC, everyone is patting him on the back for a quick resigning when for any star player in that situation it would be a no-brainer to resign.  They have done an excellent job putting young talent alongside him to grow into a powerhouse team.

The  bulls starting five in 1988 were Oakley, Brad Sellers, Dave Corzine, and Sam Vincent. The first player off the bench was John Paxson. Pippen and Grant rarely played more than 25 minutes a game as rookies, and they weren't very good at that point.

There is absolutely, positively no question that the 2010 cleveland cavs were in a better situation than the 1988 chicago bulls, as evidenced by the team's records and everything else.

There is a big difference between "in a better position now" and "looking promising for the future", especially when you're a free agent who will sign at least your next 3 years to a team. The Bulls had young, promising players.  The Cavs do not.  Jordan also hadn't played on that team for 7 years.

The Cavs got a new coach, which would have made them better for sure I believe, but roster wise they would be unable to make real moves and that team would not win a title.  Antwan is not a reliable playoff guy and Mo Williams dissapears for 15-20 minutes at a time.

[angryguy77]

LeRoid could have taken less money and attracted talent around him. He didn't have to go to another team to win. He would have looked much better doing this. But this move at this moment doesn't make me hate him more than before. He's still a Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline..

[LilRip]

greetings!

i'm a long-time reader and long-time poster in the boston globe but this is my first post here on CB. i wasn't planning on signing up but i couldn't resist chiming in on this topic:

i think it all comes down to this. LBJ is simply 2 things. he is either

1) a sellout
2) a Robin

in scenario 1: Listen, there were plenty of great destinations LBJ could have gone (Knicks w/ Amare, Bulls with Boozer/Noah/Rose/Deng/etc., Cavs) and he still would've been in a contender and he wouldn't have tarnished his legacy at all. the Cavs had been back-to-back best regular season team and they were the odds-on favorite to win it all in the East last year. so it's not like LBJ had a crap team. if anything, he had a pretty [dang] good team! you don't have the best record in the league with a crap team.

furthermore, if the Cavs had beaten us, Shaq would've given Dwight and Bynum problems. As a matter of fact, i would think that the Cavs would've beaten LA. They just ran into bad matchups with us with the emergence of Rondo and the versatility of KG.

but back to Lebron...

the fact that he joins one well-established superstar (Wade) and one wannabe-superstar (Bosh) makes him a sellout. they are proven commodities. These are 2 perennial MVP candidates joining forces in their prime. Wade was expected to sign with the Heat (he signed before LBJ's decision) and Bosh was expected to follow him anyway so there are no problems there. It's just that LBJ chose to join another player's team that makes him such a sellout. It's like him signing with the Lakers. or Boston. or the Magic. LBJ's biggest rivals are Kobe, Wade, Dwight, Melo and the "hated Celtics". These teams have the players that the greats are supposed to vanquish on their way to cementing their legacy. and for him to sign with them... that's just a sellout. imagine if during the time when Kobe's Lakers teams still sucked (with Kwame and Smush) and he just decided to join the Spurs.


in scenario 2: the other probable reason why people are upset is because LBJ was packaged/marketed in such a way that we were made to believe he was the next generation version of MJ or Bird/Magic. after all, "We are all Witnesses" that denotes greatness. and the fact that LBJ chose to go the "easy" route shows that well, he really isn't. instead, he's a next-gen version of Pippen. a guy who's really great but not great-enough. and all this talk about how he's the King or the Chosen One propagated by him and the media suddenly makes him look like one big fraud. and no, people don't take too kindly to frauds.


so there you have it. it's either he's the next Pippen (who we can all say wasn't MJ) or he's a sellout. MJ and others trashed him and rightfully so. they're not saying he's not a great talent. i'm sure everyone recognizes that he's a terrific player. all they're saying is that don't mention their names with LBJ in the same breath. because he's not at that level and now, there's no way he can ever reach them.



- LilRip

(ps: about Barkley joining a loaded team later on in his career. that doesn't tarnish his legacy at all. if he did it in his prime like LBJ did, then it's a diff matter. but to do it at the twilight of your career ala Payton... i don't think that tarnishes anything)

[Eric_Suede]

I have to disagree with Lebron not playing team ball and for that matter that Cleveland is a good team. Sure, they are with Lebron but let's see what they do this year. Guys, like him or not, Lebron is the best player in the game. Noone called MJ a winner either till he started winning titles. I think you will see exactly how much of team player Lebron is this year. And, for anyone who thinks that Heat team will cave for this reason or that, you are in for one heck of a surprise. I am a C's fan through and through but I still think Miami will give every team in the league fits.

Gotta disagree there. To me this is one of those cases where you repeat something over & over again people will eventually believe it. I'm speaking of the "Lebron is the best in the nba" sentiment. As a Die-hard Celtic fan , I of course hate everything about the lakers but I have to be honest and give credit where credit is due. Kobe is the business. I honestly don't think Lebron is better than Kobe. Only advantage i'll give Lebron over Kobe is his stregnth getting to the hole. Otherwise Kobe's J is better, Leadership, poise in tight game situations , is all better. Plus lets not forget number of titles. Had it not been for the rape charge I believe Kobe would still be the media darling of the nba.
  Back to the orignal point in the thread, I really don't think Jordan "dissed" lebron. He was simply pointing out how things were different from yesteryear. That's all. Media blowing this out of proportion. I don't think anything Jordan said was disrespectful.

[RJ87]

I don't get why people keep saying Lebron didn't have a good supporting cast - that Cavs team had the best NBA record 2 years in a row. That's not just hogwash.

IMO, during the Orlando series in 09, coaching failed them in the end. Mike Brown failed to make adjustments against Turkoglu and Lewis.

In 2010, LBJ's lack of killer instinct was a glaring reason why that team didn't win - that's always been a knock I've had on him. He's a great athlete and player, no question. But in the biggest games, there's just this lack of need from him to step on the other team's collective throats, so to speak. As much as I hate Kobe, he's got it. Wade has it, MJ had it. Honestly, if LBJ had that too, maybe they could've gone farther, we'll never know.

As far as the comments from Magic and MJ, they were asked a question, they answered honestly. I don't see a problem with it. I think during that era, there was more of a need for franchise players to be just that - franchise players. They had talented guys around them, but when it's all said and done, we knew how the man on those teams were.

[soap07]

I don't get why people keep saying Lebron didn't have a good supporting cast - that Cavs team had the best NBA record 2 years in a row. That's not just hogwash.

It's been discussed ad nauseum but I'll bring it up again: During the regular season, the Cavaliers could get away with LeBron having a bad game here and there. You can beat the Nets if LeBron has an off game. But in the playoffs games against contending teams, LeBron had to be the exceptional triple-double-threat he was every night. You can't win a series like that over a defensive team like the Celtics. Consider Kobe's numbers in Game 7 and the Lakers still won thanks to Gasol. LeBron has never had a teammate with the ability to bail him out in the playoffs or even make things easier. Even MJ had a bad game here and there in the playoffs and the Bulls still won because Pippen stepped up. The Cavaliers were built well for the regular season but just didn't have enough for the playoffs.

As far as the comments from Magic and MJ, they were asked a question, they answered honestly.

Magic didn't answer honestly. He has, clearly, a selective memory.