I don't like LBJ but Magic & MJ are full of it

[indeedproceed]

I dunno about MJ, but Bird and Magic focused so much of their career to beating each other...I just don't know how they'd end up playing together. Not that they hated each other..they loved having a worthy adversary.

ANother thing to consider here...the NBA for a lot of these guys...after a few years of top tier play the 'love of the game' turns into 'the love of the competition'. These guys aren't the guy from Tin Cup in search of the perfect stroke. They want to win, and they want to win by beating the guy who thinks he is better. And they want to win by being 'the man'.

Jordan has said as much before.  

[cons]

I think part of the reason magic and bird never had to jump to another team was that the talent was way less diluted in the 80's.
 Granted, they were also very lucky to have 2 of the all time greatest GM's running their teams at the time - but in the 80's and even early 90's you were just more likely to have more than 1 superstar per team b/c there were less teams. This was before we even had the Heat, and also the Magic, Grizzlies, Raptors, Timberwolves and Bobcats. (Not to mention the perenially useless Clippers) I think most NBA fans would agree that contraction would increase the quality of the teams today significantly.
 Magic had kareem, worthy. Bird had McHale, Parish. LeBron never did get a great #2. I mean Mo williams? Larry hughes? Cleveland did screw it up royally overall. They had seven years to find him a sidekick and never did. But had LeBron played in the 80's he would have had a statistically better chance of playing with better teammates.
 Jordan was obviously amazing, but the Bulls were also fairly lucky that scottie pippen turned out to be so good. No one really saw that coming when he was drafted. If he had been a bust, a lot of things might have been different.

But overall, my point is that this lebron thing to me illustrates one of the reasons why the league should contract.

[jacksmedulaoblongata]

The root of the problem of all these conversations about Lebron James is that he is being put in a league he doesn't belong in to begin with. I mean c'mon, why is this guy coming up in conversations that involve Bird, Magic, Jordan or Olajuwon? If people saw him for the player that he is and not the player they want or expect him to be than they would see that he's just another all star player changing teams. Now he did conduct himself like a tool but other than that, he's just another all star changing teams.

[LB3533]

Lebron James chose to play with talented players for a better chance at winning titles.

I don't think he left his hometown to hurt them. The way he left may have hurt them, but he left his hometown cause he didn't see that winning a title was possible there.

The Kobe/Lebron discussion isn't over because Kobe already threatened to leave because he didn't have quality teammates. When Kobe got them, he stayed.

[Snakehead]

Great piece on why Magic is a hypocrite on ESPN.  A reader put together a piece that pulls from absolutely hypocritical Magic quotes and compares their supporting casts for their first 7 years:

TrueHoop reader Mike, however, takes special exception to the idea that Johnson would stick with a mediocre roster over playing with superstars. He e-mails:

    As much as I admire and respect these players, it becomes hard to take them seriously when none of them had situations comparable to LeBron, and all of the them got to play with other great, Top-50 All-Time players. The quest to play with other elite talent is basically universal amongst stars, be it Wilt going to join Hal Greer and later Jerry West and Elgin Baylor or all the way up to Kobe openly flirting with the Bulls and Clippers and threatening trade demands until the Lakers acquired Pau Gasol.

    The fact that LeBron simply exercised his rights as a free agent to leave Cleveland to do what countless other players have done, rather than demand trades or refuse to play for the team that drafted him, should not be held against him.

    I'm not even a fan of LeBron, but at this point I think he's getting dumped on pretty unfairly.


And in the case of Magic Johnson, Mike has done his homework. He found a Mike Downey L.A. Times article from 1991:

    Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

    "I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life." Chicago called heads in a 1979 coin flip with Los Angeles for the No. 1 pick in the NBA college draft. It came up tails.

    Johnson signed with the Lakers after his sophomore year of college and proceeded to win five championships. The Bulls picked second, took UCLA's David Greenwood and have won no championships.

    "I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers."


Then Mike gets to comparing the Lakers who played with Johnson in his first seven years to the Cavaliers who played with James over the same period. Johnson's teammates, in aggregate, had:

    * Two first team All-Rookie selections (Byron Scott, James Worthy)
    * 11 All-Star appearances (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar seven times, Norm Nixon twice, Worthy, Jamaal Wilkes)
    * Four All-NBA first team selections (Abdul-Jabbar)
    * Two All-NBA second team selections (Abdul-Jabbar)
    * Five All-Defensive first team selections (Michael Cooper three times, Abdul-Jabbar twice)
    * Four All-Defensive second team selections (Cooper three times, Abdul-Jabbar once)
    * One MVP Award (Abdul-Jabbar)
    * In addition, Abdul-Jabbar, Worthy, Wilkes, Nixon, and Cooper all got votes for MVP at one point in time or the other during Magic's first seven years, and Cooper won defensive player of the year in Johnson's eighth year.


Mike does a similar analysis on James' Cavs' rosters:

    * Zero first team All-Rookie Selections
    * Two All-Star game appearances (Mo Williams, Zydrunas llgauskas)
    * Zero All-NBA first team selection
    * Zero All-NBA second team selections
    * Zero All-Defensive first team selections
    * One All-Defensive second team selection (Anderson Vareajo)
    * Zero MVP Awards

The piece doesn't even factor in the terrible head coach situation LBJ had in Cleveland.  Check out the whole piece here:


http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/18462/magic-johnson-sought-elite-teammates-too


These guys were great players, but they are delusional.  The Chicago quote is a nail in the coffin of his potshot at LeBron.

The root of the problem of all these conversations about Lebron James is that he is being put in a league he doesn't belong in to begin with. I mean c'mon, why is this guy coming up in conversations that involve Bird, Magic, Jordan or Olajuwon? If people saw him for the player that he is and not the player they want or expect him to be than they would see that he's just another all star player changing teams. Now he did conduct himself like a tool but other than that, he's just another all star changing teams.

Man, you are crazy.  A two time reigning MVP is another all-star? 

LeBron will go down as one of the most talented players in NBA history.  Don't ride that hate bandwagon to a foolish conclusion that he's just "another all star".

[Celtics17]

Lebron is miore then an all star changin teams! Granted, he is not at Larry's, MJ's or Magic's stature yet but make no mistake, he has that ability. Look at MJ 5 or maybe 6 years into his career. If, as someone above pointed out, Pippen had been a bust then MJ might have gone down as the best scorer the league had seen since Wilt but not it's best player ever.

Give Lebron a couple of years of playing with some real talent and see where he is. If he wins a title averaging 25, 10, and 11 or something around that do you then put him in a little different light? What if he does it multiple times? Then, do you maybe consider him one of the best?

This great debate that always goes on about whether certain statistically dominant players are winners or just numbers players has two sides. Would Wilt have won 11 titles if he and Russ switched teams? I dont know but will absolutely, 100% guarantee you, and I mean guarantee you that Wilt with the C's would have won way more then the two titles that he won not being on the C's.  

[incoherent]

he's just another all star player changing teams. Now he did conduct himself like a tool but other than that, he's just another all star changing teams.

Nothing about Lebron or his game can be labeled as "just another allstar" but I understand, you dislike him and are trying to bring him down a peg...

Just like Magic and Jordan are doing.  Jordan, for obvious reasons, and Magic because of the Kobe v. Lebron thing (maybe not exactly for that, but either way these guys have very bias opinions).

When it comes to things like giving these guys the final say on what Lebron's legacy is and how going to Miami effected it, it's best, by far, to chose someone who is OBJECTIVE and in no way involved to base your own opinion on. 

Their opinions not only do not matter they should be stricken from any argument that is citing them as a valid point.

When people tell you things that always make themselves look better do you always believe and trust in that person's opinion? Or are they just saying that to make their legacies or own situations look that much better?

When Lebron and Wade's career's are over I will look back and then decide for MYSELF if these guys can compare to Jordan and Magic, or maybe not because I don't really see how it even matters other then for just entertainment purposes.  It's not like we will ever really know who is better then who unless Player A lost an NBA game to Player B it's pointless to keep comparing them while expecting a real answer.

[Celtics4ever]

LeBron is all about LeBron.  Say he threw game to get to Miami, Larry, Magic of Michael would have never done that.  They were all three competative and wanted to win everything. I get a sense as long as there are paydays James doesn't care about winning.

Sorry buddy, but I think Magic and Michael know a little more about B-ball and competative spirit than you.

[jacksmedulaoblongata]

The root of the problem of all these conversations about Lebron James is that he is being put in a league he doesn't belong in to begin with. I mean c'mon, why is this guy coming up in conversations that involve Bird, Magic, Jordan or Olajuwon? If people saw him for the player that he is and not the player they want or expect him to be than they would see that he's just another all star player changing teams. Now he did conduct himself like a tool but other than that, he's just another all star changing teams.

Man, you are crazy.  A two time reigning MVP is another all-star? 

LeBron will go down as one of the most talented players in NBA history.  Don't ride that hate bandwagon to a foolish conclusion that he's just "another all star".
[/quote]

I don't hate anyone bro, I just call it the way I see it, not the way ESPN or TNT or anyone else see's it. You disagree, more power to you.

he's just another all star player changing teams. Now he did conduct himself like a tool but other than that, he's just another all star changing teams.

Nothing about Lebron or his game can be labeled as "just another allstar" but I understand, you dislike him and are trying to bring him down a peg...

Just like Magic and Jordan are doing.  Jordan, for obvious reasons, and Magic because of the Kobe v. Lebron thing (maybe not exactly for that, but either way these guys have very bias opinions).

When it comes to things like giving these guys the final say on what Lebron's legacy is and how going to Miami effected it, it's best, by far, to chose someone who is OBJECTIVE and in no way involved to base your own opinion on. 

Their opinions not only do not matter they should be stricken from any argument that is citing them as a valid point.

When people tell you things that always make themselves look better do you always believe and trust in that person's opinion? Or are they just saying that to make their legacies or own situations look that much better?

When Lebron and Wade's career's are over I will look back and then decide for MYSELF if these guys can compare to Jordan and Magic, or maybe not because I don't really see how it even matters other then for just entertainment purposes.  It's not like we will ever really know who is better then who unless Player A lost an NBA game to Player B it's pointless to keep comparing them while expecting a real answer.

I don't feel the need to knock James down any pegs, and even if I did, posting messages on a blog that he'll never read sure won't get it done.

[Snakehead]

When it comes to things like giving these guys the final say on what Lebron's legacy is and how going to Miami effected it, it's best, by far, to chose someone who is OBJECTIVE and in no way involved to base your own opinion on.  

Their opinions not only do not matter they should be stricken from any argument that is citing them as a valid point.

When people tell you things that always make themselves look better do you always believe and trust in that person's opinion? Or are they just saying that to make their legacies or own situations look that much better?

When Lebron and Wade's career's are over I will look back and then decide for MYSELF if these guys can compare to Jordan and Magic, or maybe not because I don't really see how it even matters other then for just entertainment purposes.  It's not like we will ever really know who is better then who unless Player A lost an NBA game to Player B it's pointless to keep comparing them while expecting a real answer.

TP for you.

That's the thing about this whole issue: people who are sports fans, or I thought were, are saying things like LeBron is hurting his "brand"... **** does that mean? Are we in They Live or something?  Does everyone work in marketing?

Or "legacy"... he is not even done playing! You have to be done in your field to have a legacy left behind you.  If LBJ wins 6 rings in a row and then resigns and wins a couple more does he not have a good legacy?  Not saying that will happen but it could... so why would you even judge?

People watch too much Sportscenter or something.  Like you point out incoherent, WE, the fans, will judge the players.  I could give a crap what Magic, Jordan, or Bird think about anything.  They played and we can judge their play.  Like you say unless people directly compete you can't compare them, and past that there are many other factors (rule changes, talent level in the NBA in general, supporting cast around a player, physical training, medical advances, social conditions, etc) that this comparison is silly.

That is why I personally never will say Michael Jordan is the best player of all time.  I never really saw Bird or Magic play, I was too young, and Jordan was amazing but he played in the past.  You can't compare. He was extremely talented, but others were as well.  And there are others that won more titles (namely Russell) than him, so if we're going with winning then wouldn't Bill Russell be the best ever? I can say Jordan is one of the best players ever, and on an very short list, but since I've never seen most of the all time greats play live (like Wilt, West, Oscar, Russell, etc) who am I to really judge?  And everyone else?  Has anyone seen them all, and if they even have, there are the aforementioned factors of rule changes, medical advancements, physical training, etc around their play that can completely change our perceptions of them.


And regardless of my opinion on ranking the greatest players, basketball is entertainment and belongs to the fans.

[LB3533]

LeBron is all about LeBron.  Say he threw game to get to Miami, Larry, Magic of Michael would have never done that.  They were all three competative and wanted to win everything. I get a sense as long as there are paydays James doesn't care about winning.

Sorry buddy, but I think Magic and Michael know a little more about B-ball and competative spirit than you.

The only reason they know it more is because they experienced playing with great players.

Lebron hasn't yet in the NBA, save for a few AS games.

[soap07]

I'd like to just point everyone to this TrueHoop post that chronicles how Magic Johnson only agreed to jump to the NBA when he was drafted because he was picked by the Lakers. He said to the press he wouldn't have come to the NBA if he was drafted by the Bulls.

The relevant quote:

And in the case of Magic Johnson, Mike has done his homework. He found a Mike Downey L.A. Times article from 1991:
Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

"I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life." Chicago called heads in a 1979 coin flip with Los Angeles for the No. 1 pick in the NBA college draft. It came up tails.

Johnson signed with the Lakers after his sophomore year of college and proceeded to win five championships. The Bulls picked second, took UCLA's David Greenwood and have won no championships.

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers."

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop

[dlpin]

Before people continue saying MJ is full of it, here are a few facts, so you can make up your own mind:

In 1988, MJ and Barkley were free agents.

The cap for the 1988-89 season was 7.2 million dollars.

Entering the offseason, the bulls had about 4 million dollars in cap space before resigning Jordan.

Jordan played with a bunch of nobodies, and though Pippen was there, he had played only 20 mpg as a rookie.

Barkley was the key piece in a 76rs team that had just lost Dr. J to retirement a year earlier and had missed the playoffs. The sixers had over 4 million dollars in cap space before resigning Barkley.


In other words, Jordan and Barkley both had an opportunity to go play with each other.

Instead, here's what happened:

Jordan resigned with the Bulls for 8 years (not 3 or 4), making 2 million his first year. With the rest of their cap space, the Bulls traded Oakley and the 19th pick for Cartwright and the 11th pick (Cartwright made about 250k more than Oakley). They then signed or resigned Perdue, Sam Vincent, Ed Nealy and others.

Barkley resigned with the sixers, and they signed a couple of rookies and others. They ended the season about a million under the cap.

[moiso]

I agree 100% with Magic, MJ and Barkley.  I'm glad they spoke up because they spoke my exact thoughts.

[Snakehead]

Before people continue saying MJ is full of it, here are a few facts, so you can make up your own mind:

In 1988, MJ and Barkley were free agents.

The cap for the 1988-89 season was 7.2 million dollars.

Entering the offseason, the bulls had about 4 million dollars in cap space before resigning Jordan.

Jordan played with a bunch of nobodies, and though Pippen was there, he had played only 20 mpg as a rookie.

Barkley was the key piece in a 76rs team that had just lost Dr. J to retirement a year earlier and had missed the playoffs. The sixers had over 4 million dollars in cap space before resigning Barkley.


In other words, Jordan and Barkley both had an opportunity to go play with each other.

Instead, here's what happened:

Jordan resigned with the Bulls for 8 years (not 3 or 4), making 2 million his first year. With the rest of their cap space, the Bulls traded Oakley and the 19th pick for Cartwright and the 11th pick (Cartwright made about 250k more than Oakley). They then signed or resigned Perdue, Sam Vincent, Ed Nealy and others.

Barkley resigned with the sixers, and they signed a couple of rookies and others. They ended the season about a million under the cap.

MJ might not of had a great situation at the time but it was not a bad one, not like LeBron's that is.  And just because they COULD of played together doesn't mean someone wanted to sign them both (though they could of I'm sure, who wouldn't want both of those guys, but Miami and Reilly really went after the LBJ, Wade, Bosh trio aggressively.. it's not something that just falls in your lap).

MJ and Barkley had also not played 7 seasons with their respective teams.

Barkley never won himself a ring, so lets not look at his career for how others should do it.

Also notice that Barkley joined two other great players on the Houston Rockets in a last attempt at a ring late in his career...


And don't get me wrong, Jordan is obviously great and Barkley is one of my favorite players, you have to love the tenacity and fire he played with, but again he never won a ring and laughably looking at his comments made a desperate attempt with two other greats late in his career.  He can take pot shots all day but that will not change the fact that he has never been a champion.

Neither has LeBron, but I doubt that lasts for long.  He certainly put himself in a great position to succeed.