Mike Miller Backing Out of Heat Deal?

[MBunge]

Magic usually played with two other guards didn't he? LeBron can play the PG position at an all NBA level if that's where he is put by his coaching staff.

How many PGs have a quickness advantage on Wade? Not a whole lot, and he can adjust to guarding PGs if necessary. Do you really think he's a worse option that Mario Chalmers, Derek Fisher, Mo Williams, Shannon Brown, etc. that all were PGs defensively for playoff teams?

No, Magic usually played PG with a shooting guard and two forwards.  In 85-85, for example, the starters for most of the year were Magic, Byron Scott, Kurt Rambis, James Worthy and Kareem.

The question isn't is Wade better than those guys.  The question is, is playing Wade, LeBron, Miller better than playing Wade and LeBron with a legitimate point guard?  Not a great PG, just someone to handle the ball, run the offense and hit an occasional shot.

Mike

[wdleehi]

Magic usually played with two other guards didn't he? LeBron can play the PG position at an all NBA level if that's where he is put by his coaching staff.

How many PGs have a quickness advantage on Wade? Not a whole lot, and he can adjust to guarding PGs if necessary. Do you really think he's a worse option that Mario Chalmers, Derek Fisher, Mo Williams, Shannon Brown, etc. that all were PGs defensively for playoff teams?

No, Magic usually played PG with a shooting guard and two forwards.  In 85-85, for example, the starters for most of the year were Magic, Byron Scott, Kurt Rambis, James Worthy and Kareem.

The question isn't is Wade better than those guys.  The question is, is playing Wade, LeBron, Miller better than playing Wade and LeBron with a legitimate point guard?  Not a great PG, just someone to handle the ball, run the offense and hit an occasional shot.

Mike

Unless they get someone like Chris Paul, the ball will be in Lebron's hand.  He will be the PG on offense.


So the best fit is a guy that is a threat from three point land.


So, Wade and Miller as a backcourt is probably the best they can set up at this point. 

[MBunge]

Magic usually played with two other guards didn't he? LeBron can play the PG position at an all NBA level if that's where he is put by his coaching staff.

How many PGs have a quickness advantage on Wade? Not a whole lot, and he can adjust to guarding PGs if necessary. Do you really think he's a worse option that Mario Chalmers, Derek Fisher, Mo Williams, Shannon Brown, etc. that all were PGs defensively for playoff teams?

No, Magic usually played PG with a shooting guard and two forwards.  In 85-85, for example, the starters for most of the year were Magic, Byron Scott, Kurt Rambis, James Worthy and Kareem.

The question isn't is Wade better than those guys.  The question is, is playing Wade, LeBron, Miller better than playing Wade and LeBron with a legitimate point guard?  Not a great PG, just someone to handle the ball, run the offense and hit an occasional shot.

Mike

Unless they get someone like Chris Paul, the ball will be in Lebron's hand.  He will be the PG on offense.


So the best fit is a guy that is a threat from three point land.


So, Wade and Miller as a backcourt is probably the best they can set up at this point. 

Being a point-forward is NOT THE SAME THING AS BEING A POINT GUARD.  You might think that's just semantics, but it's not.

Mike

[wdleehi]

Magic usually played with two other guards didn't he? LeBron can play the PG position at an all NBA level if that's where he is put by his coaching staff.

How many PGs have a quickness advantage on Wade? Not a whole lot, and he can adjust to guarding PGs if necessary. Do you really think he's a worse option that Mario Chalmers, Derek Fisher, Mo Williams, Shannon Brown, etc. that all were PGs defensively for playoff teams?

No, Magic usually played PG with a shooting guard and two forwards.  In 85-85, for example, the starters for most of the year were Magic, Byron Scott, Kurt Rambis, James Worthy and Kareem.

The question isn't is Wade better than those guys.  The question is, is playing Wade, LeBron, Miller better than playing Wade and LeBron with a legitimate point guard?  Not a great PG, just someone to handle the ball, run the offense and hit an occasional shot.

Mike

Unless they get someone like Chris Paul, the ball will be in Lebron's hand.  He will be the PG on offense.


So the best fit is a guy that is a threat from three point land.


So, Wade and Miller as a backcourt is probably the best they can set up at this point. 

Being a point-forward is NOT THE SAME THING AS BEING A POINT GUARD.  You might think that's just semantics, but it's not.

Mike

Was Ron Harper a PG when he started along with Jordon and Pippen?

Or when he started next to Kobe?


In both cases, he defended PGs on defense, but someone else ran the point.  In both cases, he won a ring.


So, I am missing the issue with starting two SGs when you have someone of Lebron's level running the offense.

[billysan]

Magic usually played with two other guards didn't he? LeBron can play the PG position at an all NBA level if that's where he is put by his coaching staff.

How many PGs have a quickness advantage on Wade? Not a whole lot, and he can adjust to guarding PGs if necessary. Do you really think he's a worse option that Mario Chalmers, Derek Fisher, Mo Williams, Shannon Brown, etc. that all were PGs defensively for playoff teams?

No, Magic usually played PG with a shooting guard and two forwards.  In 85-85, for example, the starters for most of the year were Magic, Byron Scott, Kurt Rambis, James Worthy and Kareem.

The question isn't is Wade better than those guys.  The question is, is playing Wade, LeBron, Miller better than playing Wade and LeBron with a legitimate point guard?  Not a great PG, just someone to handle the ball, run the offense and hit an occasional shot.

Mike

Unless they get someone like Chris Paul, the ball will be in Lebron's hand.  He will be the PG on offense.


So the best fit is a guy that is a threat from three point land.


So, Wade and Miller as a backcourt is probably the best they can set up at this point.  

Being a point-forward is NOT THE SAME THING AS BEING A POINT GUARD.  You might think that's just semantics, but it's not.

Mike

Was Ron Harper a PG when he started along with Jordon and Pippen?

Or when he started next to Kobe?


In both cases, he defended PGs on defense, but someone else ran the point.  In both cases, he won a ring.


So, I am missing the issue with starting two SGs when you have someone of Lebron's level running the offense.

Just to play devils advocate, why isnt Phil still doing this with the Lakers?

Why are they using Derek Fisher or Steve Blake instead of a better SG?

I think the better teams will punish Lebron by trapping and pressing him if he brings the ball up the court. Same goes for Mike Miller. If D Wade brings it up, he is not as effective offensively as has been proven. All three are decent ball handlers in the open court but that is during the running game. Half court sets and bringing the ball up after a made basket are going to be a problem.

Getting the ball over the halfcourt line and setting up the offense is going to be an issue for the Heat if they dont use a PG or better ball handler. Chalmers will start at PG and Miller will come off the bench. Just my opinion.

[wdleehi]

Magic usually played with two other guards didn't he? LeBron can play the PG position at an all NBA level if that's where he is put by his coaching staff.

How many PGs have a quickness advantage on Wade? Not a whole lot, and he can adjust to guarding PGs if necessary. Do you really think he's a worse option that Mario Chalmers, Derek Fisher, Mo Williams, Shannon Brown, etc. that all were PGs defensively for playoff teams?

No, Magic usually played PG with a shooting guard and two forwards.  In 85-85, for example, the starters for most of the year were Magic, Byron Scott, Kurt Rambis, James Worthy and Kareem.

The question isn't is Wade better than those guys.  The question is, is playing Wade, LeBron, Miller better than playing Wade and LeBron with a legitimate point guard?  Not a great PG, just someone to handle the ball, run the offense and hit an occasional shot.

Mike

Unless they get someone like Chris Paul, the ball will be in Lebron's hand.  He will be the PG on offense.


So the best fit is a guy that is a threat from three point land.


So, Wade and Miller as a backcourt is probably the best they can set up at this point.  

Being a point-forward is NOT THE SAME THING AS BEING A POINT GUARD.  You might think that's just semantics, but it's not.

Mike

Was Ron Harper a PG when he started along with Jordon and Pippen?

Or when he started next to Kobe?


In both cases, he defended PGs on defense, but someone else ran the point.  In both cases, he won a ring.


So, I am missing the issue with starting two SGs when you have someone of Lebron's level running the offense.

Just to play devils advocate, why isnt Phil still doing this with the Lakers?

Why are they using Derek Fisher or Steve Blake instead of a better SG?

I think the better teams will punish Lebron by trapping and pressing him if he brings the ball up the court. Same goes for Mike Miller. If D Wade brings it up, he is not as effective offensively as has been proven. All three are decent ball handlers in the open court but that is during the running game. Half court sets and bringing the ball up after a made basket are going to be a problem.

Getting the ball over the halfcourt line and setting up the offense is going to be an issue for the Heat if they dont use a PG or better ball handler. Chalmers will start at PG and Miller will come off the bench. Just my opinion.

Because Fisher is basically a SG in a PG body.  He is out there to hit outside shots.  It doesn't hurt that he has been there for a long time and is a smart defender. 

Just like Paxon, BJ Armstrong, Kerr...

[the_Bird]

Why isn't Phil doing that?  Because while Kobe *can* be an effective initiator of the offense, he's not as natural doing that as LeBron is.  I mean, Ray Allen can act as an emergency point guard, but it takes away from everything else that he does.

LeBron could be a rich man's Magic Johnson, if that's the role they ask him to play.  I don't think he's going to play PG, per se, but wouldn't surprise me to see him average eight assists a night.  I HIGHLY doubt it would happen, but if anyone's ever again going to average a triple-double in our lifetimes, it'll be LeBron next year.

I do think they'll get another point guard to play, but given the skills both LeBron AND Wade have in distributing the ball, the role of this person will be to get the ball over halfcourt and to hit 35% - 40% of their three point attempts.  That person may or may not start, but they probably need someone for at least twenty minutes a game or so.  Think they'll want someone other than Chalmers to call on.

[Roy Hobbs]

Getting the ball over the halfcourt line and setting up the offense is going to be an issue for the Heat if they dont use a PG or better ball handler. Chalmers will start at PG and Miller will come off the bench. Just my opinion.

I think Wade is a better ball-handler than Chalmers, and Lebron probably is, too.  The Heat didn't allow Chalmers to do a lot of creating last season, and beside Wade and Lebron, I think his value would decrease even further, especially since he's not a great outside shooter.

Mike Miller is most effective when he's allowing others to create; he becomes too passive when he's relied on too heavily, which is why I think he'd be a bad fit for the bench.  I expect him to start.

[action781]

Magic usually played with two other guards didn't he? LeBron can play the PG position at an all NBA level if that's where he is put by his coaching staff.

How many PGs have a quickness advantage on Wade? Not a whole lot, and he can adjust to guarding PGs if necessary. Do you really think he's a worse option that Mario Chalmers, Derek Fisher, Mo Williams, Shannon Brown, etc. that all were PGs defensively for playoff teams?

No, Magic usually played PG with a shooting guard and two forwards.  In 85-85, for example, the starters for most of the year were Magic, Byron Scott, Kurt Rambis, James Worthy and Kareem.

The question isn't is Wade better than those guys.  The question is, is playing Wade, LeBron, Miller better than playing Wade and LeBron with a legitimate point guard?  Not a great PG, just someone to handle the ball, run the offense and hit an occasional shot.

Mike

Unless they get someone like Chris Paul, the ball will be in Lebron's hand.  He will be the PG on offense.


So the best fit is a guy that is a threat from three point land.


So, Wade and Miller as a backcourt is probably the best they can set up at this point. 

Being a point-forward is NOT THE SAME THING AS BEING A POINT GUARD.  You might think that's just semantics, but it's not.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I agree they are not the same thing, but I do think its just semantics.  A guard is a position, a forward is a position.  Point refers to who brings the ball up.  If a forward is your best ball handler and offense runner, why does it matter if you have a point guard or a point forward?  If he's a better point than any of your guards, then run him at point.  The essential question Miami needs to address is:  Whats a better situation?  Lebron (or Wade) at point, Mike Miller at wing?  Or Free agent X at point and Lebron at wing?  I think Miami has decided that Miller

And also, I don't know if its appropriate to compare basketball now with 25 years ago because I think the game has evolved.  I wasn't old enough to be a fan back then, but it seems that back then you had 2 guards, 2 forwards, and a center often (Please correct me if I'm wrong).  These days, you more often see a pg, 2 wings, and 2 bigs on the floor.  The game has evolved around freakish athleticism and 3 pt shooting.

I think with this evolution of the game, the "point forward" becomes less odd than before.  Because now you can still start your 2 bigs, put 2 wings around him, and the offense is more or less ran the same way except you have an enormous man running the show.  A good question: what makes Lebron a point forward and Shaun Livingston a point guard?

[jasail]

Magic usually played with two other guards didn't he? LeBron can play the PG position at an all NBA level if that's where he iput by his coaching staff.

How many PGs have a quickness advantage on Wade? Not a whole lot, and he can adjust to guarding PGs if necessary. Do you really think he's a worse option that Mario Chalmers, Derek Fisher, Mo Williams, Shannon Brown, etc. that all were PGs defensively for playoff teams?

No, Magic usually played PG with a shooting guard and two forwards.  In 85-85, for example, the starters for most of the year were Magic, Byron Scott, Kurt Rambis, James Worthy and Kareem.

The question isn't is Wade better than those guys.  The question is, is playing Wade, LeBron, Miller better than playing Wade and LeBron with a legitimate point guard?  Not a great PG, just someone to handle the ball, run the offense and hit an occasional shot.

Mike

Unless they get someone like Chris Paul, the ball will be in Lebron's hand.  He will be the PG on offense.


So the best fit is a guy that is a threat from three point land.


So, Wade and Miller as a backcourt is probably the best they can set up at this point. 

Being a point-forward is NOT THE SAME THING AS BEING A POINT GUARD.  You might think that's just semantics, but it's not.

Mike

No a point forward is not the same as a point guard.  However, the value of a point guard may be diminished if you have a wing that can effectively bring the ball up and set up the offense. 

The question is would you rather have LeBron as your primary ball handler or a league average point guard?

Since LeBron is has not shown a great desire to come off screens or sit himself in the post I wouldn't mind him having the ball, also Wade is a more than adequate ball handler.  However, both he and Wade (more specifically Wade) will have a harder time asserting themselves in the offense if they are the primary ball handler.In the end I think this comes down to finances and where Miller may be most useful. 

Financially it may be more viable for them to find a minus-league average point guard , than it would be for them to find an adequate sub at the wings (see your very own Celtics).

Also, Miller is likely more productive as a super-sub (30 mpg) behind the 1-2-3.  Come in for the 1 and have Wade and James handle the ball, then he could also slide up and take a majority of the back-up minutes at the wing as well.  This could help create some serious size mis-matches as well.

They are going to have to make the most out of a short roster.    Having Miller come off the bench to soak up a majority of the 1-2-3 minutes and starting a pretty mediocore pg like Chalmers may be the best way to do that. 



 

[MBunge]

Was Ron Harper a PG when he started along with Jordon and Pippen?

Or when he started next to Kobe?


In both cases, he defended PGs on defense, but someone else ran the point.  In both cases, he won a ring.


So, I am missing the issue with starting two SGs when you have someone of Lebron's level running the offense.

Is Mike Miller similar to Ron Harper in any way?

Are the Heat going to run the triangle offense, which requires different things from its PG than other offenses?

Mike

[billysan]

Getting the ball over the halfcourt line and setting up the offense is going to be an issue for the Heat if they dont use a PG or better ball handler. Chalmers will start at PG and Miller will come off the bench. Just my opinion.

I think Wade is a better ball-handler than Chalmers, and Lebron probably is, too.  The Heat didn't allow Chalmers to do a lot of creating last season, and beside Wade and Lebron, I think his value would decrease even further, especially since he's not a great outside shooter.

Mike Miller is most effective when he's allowing others to create; he becomes too passive when he's relied on too heavily, which is why I think he'd be a bad fit for the bench.  I expect him to start.

Ok, if D Wade is the better ball handler, then why isnt he the Heat's PG? Daequan Cook is a better player than Chalmers isnt he? Wade at PG and Cook at SG would have made more sense last year. Point is, he (Wade) may be the better ball handler but he is most effective off the ball. If he is bringing the ball up, same for Lebron, they will take the first shot (and maybe only) on a large number of possessions. I dont think the Heat have good enough rebounding (Bosh?) for that. We shall see.


I agree that Mike Miller will definitely be most effective offensively as a spot up shooter and cutter, not as a creator. He is an excellent third option guy. Wether he starts or not will depend on if Wade is willing to play PG. It will be up to Wade IMO.

[MBunge]

Look, it's not that I'm saying the Heat aren't going to be very, very, very good next season.  But folks are throwing around things like 60+ wins and an NBA title like they were almost givens.

With 2 of the top 5 players in the league and one of the top 5 power forwards, the Heat are going to beat a lot of people next year and beat them badly.  But when you match up the apparent Heat roster against what's likely going to be the other top 4 teams in the East next season, the Heat are not without flaws.

I've heard that Riley is trying to bring in Juwan Howard.  That would give Miami a top 8 rotation next season of Wade, Bron, Bosh and...

Big Z - 7.4 points, 5.4 rebounds in 21 minutes last season.
Q-Rich - 8.9 points, 4.9 rebounds in 27 minutes last season.
Haslem - 9.9 points, 8.1 rebounds in 28 minutes last season.
Miller - 10.9 points, 6.2 rebounds in 33 minutes last season.
Howard - 6 points, 4.6 rebounds in 22 minutes last season.

So, since I doubt Big Z can log much more than 20some minutes a game anymore, the Heat will spend a lot of time playing two undersized 4s at the 5 and one of them is pretty old.  And if they play Chalmers or any other PG at all next season, that will significantly cut into the minutes and production of both Q-Rich and Miller.

In a couple of years, after Miami has brought in MLE-level talent a couple times, the Heat are going to be scary, scary, scary.  This year...not quite so much.

Frankly, I'd be a lot more worried about the Heat if they'd landed Fisher and J O'Neal instead of Miller and Haslem.

Mike

[Roy Hobbs]

Getting the ball over the halfcourt line and setting up the offense is going to be an issue for the Heat if they dont use a PG or better ball handler. Chalmers will start at PG and Miller will come off the bench. Just my opinion.

I think Wade is a better ball-handler than Chalmers, and Lebron probably is, too.  The Heat didn't allow Chalmers to do a lot of creating last season, and beside Wade and Lebron, I think his value would decrease even further, especially since he's not a great outside shooter.

Mike Miller is most effective when he's allowing others to create; he becomes too passive when he's relied on too heavily, which is why I think he'd be a bad fit for the bench.  I expect him to start.

Ok, if D Wade is the better ball handler, then why isnt he the Heat's PG? Daequan Cook is a better player than Chalmers isnt he? Wade at PG and Cook at SG would have made more sense last year. Point is, he (Wade) may be the better ball handler but he is most effective off the ball. If he is bringing the ball up, same for Lebron, they will take the first shot (and maybe only) on a large number of possessions. I dont think the Heat have good enough rebounding (Bosh?) for that. We shall see.


I agree that Mike Miller will definitely be most effective offensively as a spot up shooter and cutter, not as a creator. He is an excellent third option guy. Wether he starts or not will depend on if Wade is willing to play PG. It will be up to Wade IMO.

Wade didn't play off the ball, though.  He had the ball in his hands the vast majority of the time.  That's why his assist numbers are much higher than Chalmers'. 

I'm not sure if people are thinking that Chalmers was the guy initiating the offense for the Heat consistently last year, but if they are, they're mistaken.  Wade was the de facto point guard on offense, and Wade and Lebron are now going to be splitting those duties with the Heat, I imagine.

[Roy Hobbs]

Look, it's not that I'm saying the Heat aren't going to be very, very, very good next season.  But folks are throwing around things like 60+ wins and an NBA title like they were almost givens.

With 2 of the top 5 players in the league and one of the top 5 power forwards, the Heat are going to beat a lot of people next year and beat them badly.  But when you match up the apparent Heat roster against what's likely going to be the other top 4 teams in the East next season, the Heat are not without flaws.

I've heard that Riley is trying to bring in Juwan Howard.  That would give Miami a top 8 rotation next season of Wade, Bron, Bosh and...

Big Z - 7.4 points, 5.4 rebounds in 21 minutes last season.
Q-Rich - 8.9 points, 4.9 rebounds in 27 minutes last season.
Haslem - 9.9 points, 8.1 rebounds in 28 minutes last season.
Miller - 10.9 points, 6.2 rebounds in 33 minutes last season.
Howard - 6 points, 4.6 rebounds in 22 minutes last season.

So, since I doubt Big Z can log much more than 20some minutes a game anymore, the Heat will spend a lot of time playing two undersized 4s at the 5 and one of them is pretty old.  And if they play Chalmers or any other PG at all next season, that will significantly cut into the minutes and production of both Q-Rich and Miller.

In a couple of years, after Miami has brought in MLE-level talent a couple times, the Heat are going to be scary, scary, scary.  This year...not quite so much.

Frankly, I'd be a lot more worried about the Heat if they'd landed Fisher and J O'Neal instead of Miller and Haslem.

Mike

QRich is gone to Orlando, I think.  They've got Joel Anthony and Mario Chalmers in their rotation, though.  Anthony is a pretty good defender.

C: Anthony / Big Z / (Howard)
PF: Bosh / Haslem / Howard
SF: Lebron
SG: Miller
PG: Wade / (Chalmers)

They've still got plenty of time to fill out their roster.  I wouldn't be shocked if Eddie House signed there.  Matt Barnes may.  Shaq is an outside possibility.

The Heat are a very, very scary team, and honestly, I think they've got to be the Eastern Conference favorites next year.