Author Topic: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat  (Read 10331 times)

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Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2010, 03:37:17 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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are you kidding? Stern is loving this, he's fully morphed into Vince McMahon now.
Why would Stern like the Heat situation? Sure, it has resulted in a lot of headlines, but it will also result in lower attendance. Lebron and Wade both lead to sellouts and good TV ratings individually. Combining them is redundant.

Wouldn't Stern prefer Lebron in a market that needs a boost? Regardless, that isn't part of his job.

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2010, 10:12:18 AM »

Offline Mike-Dub

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Almost every single team is in contact with players and vice versa before July 1st.

You could count on one hand the number of teams who do not engage in this.

Yes but no other team did it to this extent. 
"It's all about having the heart of a champion." - #34 Paul Pierce

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2010, 10:30:31 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Almost every single team is in contact with players and vice versa before July 1st.

You could count on one hand the number of teams who do not engage in this.
I'm not even sure its that many.

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2010, 11:04:38 AM »

Offline More Banners

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In short, this isn't supposed to happen. 

One team isn't supposed to be able to amass 3 franchise players.  The CBA, with the salary cap, trade rules, and lux tax, and the draft lottery, are all supposed to ensure that most of the time the top talent is disbursed.  It didn't work, and it's worth paying attention to how these rules are supposed to result in a competitive league.

The main thing that all of these rules assume is that players will tend to go wherever they are paid the most.  Under the cap, it would be pretty hard to have more than 2 max players on a team, at the most, without causing some serious cap issues.  Of course, finding ways to add salary/talent via the various exceptions and trade rules is what being a GM is about at times.  Still, the cap and trade rules are supposed to keep the top talent (and top salaries) from concentrating on one team.

Ditto for the draft.  The suckiest teams get the best picks, and restricted free agency makes it most likely that teams will be able to keep the players they draft, since they can pay the most for the longest, thus making it most likely that the best players from a certain draft are spread out among the worst teams, and then that those teams likely retain those (presumably) top players.

But what we're seeing is that this entire game, rigged to keep talent spread out in the name of franchise marketing and competitiveness, falls apart as soon as a few individual people decide that an extra million or two per year (half of which goes to income taxes) out of dozens of millions coming in is worth sacrificing for the priviledge of playing on a superteam.  Even without filling out their roster, half of the league has no chance of winning against Miami.  Add Mike Miller, who is clearly sacrificing the most in this scenario, and now there are only a handful of teams that will probably be able to hang with Miami.  If one or two more talented players sign on for the minimum, giving them the depth they need to go deep in the postseason, then it's lights-out.  Next summer, they'll have the MLE and LLE to add to their roster.  Look out.

It wasn't tampering that created this, but the basic assumption of all of the rules that make up a system that is designed to ensure competitiveness are based on players taking the most money they can.  Wade, Bosh, and James have rejected that assumption, and the balance of power in the NBA has shifted for the next decade.

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2010, 11:28:20 AM »

Offline the_Bird

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Well, with all the money that the NBA has invested in making BronBron the face of the league, it doesn't do them any good to see him keep getting his ass kicked in the playoffs... ;)

Don't see the League doing anything about this.  Sounds like most of the "tampering" was done amongst these three players, encouraged by Riley but it sounds like this whole discussion was initiated independent of the team's involvement.  The tampering rules may well apply to players from one squad not talking to players from another squad about joining up, but that's wholly, wholly unrealistic. 

The basic assumption behind these three players joining up - why the cap numbers and max contracts are the way that they are - is that there shouldn't be enough "extra" space to fill in the rest of a team around these guys.  The dynamics of a soft cap make this be somewhat true for 2010-2011, but we all know that the Heat will ultimately have a payroll far in excess of the $58M cap (probably well north of $70M).  They'll use their full MLE each offseason and the LLE when it's available, and I'm sure the supporting cast will go through some changes. 

There's also flexibility in terms of how trades are allowed - trade three vet-min guys to pick up a player someone else doesn't want for $3.5M or so, turn around and trade him for a guy making 25% more salary, do little things like that and you've begun to accumulate some of the $4M - $6M salary slots you really need to have a fully fleshed-out, championship-level squad.  Look for Miami to make a lot of small trades that look like "huh, just shuffling the deck chairs" but that result in Miami taking on *more* salary (and bigger salary slots). 

The solution?





A hard salary cap.  Maximum somewhere between $60M and $65M (a little less than the luxury tax level).  No more luxury tax.  No more mid-level exemptions.  No more LLE. 

Hell, I'm not sure you even need caps on individual player salaries.  Sign players for whatever you want, as long as the TOTAL team salary does not exceed $65M.  Maximum-salary caps only serve to keep teams from being even stupider with their own monies. 

No restrictions on trades, as long as each team's total salary does not exceed the hard cap. 

I'm sure the union would force a minimum-salary requirement as well, probably a figure around $35M.

If a team like Miami can figure out a way to acquire three premier talents (and pay them accordingly), fine - but let's eliminate all of the loopholes and exemptions that make it relatively easy for them to also pay all of the good supporting players they still need.

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2010, 11:50:40 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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Well, with all the money that the NBA has invested in making BronBron the face of the league, it doesn't do them any good to see him keep getting his ass kicked in the playoffs... ;)

LOL, love it! ;D

But you're probably right. :-\
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2010, 12:07:43 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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Stern very shortly I think, is going to remind everyone who's the boss.  Stay tuned.  This totally goes against the Stern model for the NBA - i.e. one superstar per team.
Stern model?  ::) Where do people come up with this?

You give him way too much credit. He has no say in player movement. Teams and players decide. All he can do is punish teams for breaking rules.
The current collective bargaining agreement the league operates under is designed to allow teams to retain their core players.  It certainly allows for player movement, but the goal is to balance out the top talent as much as possible to keep as many teams as possible competitive from a business standpoint.

Sterns major influence on the NBA was to focus the league's marketing towards its superstars, i.e. its personalities, vs its best clubs.

This is has been a trademark of Stern's tenure since he came on board back in the 80's.  It's about Kobe, LeBron, D-Wade, Nash, KG etc vs. Celtics, Lakers Magic etc. 

He cannot at all be pleased with having 3 franchise players in their primes on one club.  That means two extra teams are really going to suck to the point where they'll probably have trouble attracting fans and corporate support.  This is of course, in addition to the usual 3 or 4 crappy teams that the NBA annually has.

That some collusion, not to mention a public embarrassment for the NBA (LeBron's ESPN show) were part of the package pretty much guarantees there are going to be some discussions about the situation at the league office this week.

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2010, 12:13:03 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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Also to the point that I'm giving Stern too much credit.  The guy is a lawyer who basically took the lead in shaping the current collective bargaining agreement.  This is all his baby - with the support of his owners of course, since they're the ones responsible for him having his job.

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2010, 12:13:22 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Well, with all the money that the NBA has invested in making BronBron the face of the league, it doesn't do them any good to see him keep getting his ass kicked in the playoffs... ;)

Don't see the League doing anything about this.  Sounds like most of the "tampering" was done amongst these three players, encouraged by Riley but it sounds like this whole discussion was initiated independent of the team's involvement.  The tampering rules may well apply to players from one squad not talking to players from another squad about joining up, but that's wholly, wholly unrealistic. 

The basic assumption behind these three players joining up - why the cap numbers and max contracts are the way that they are - is that there shouldn't be enough "extra" space to fill in the rest of a team around these guys.  The dynamics of a soft cap make this be somewhat true for 2010-2011, but we all know that the Heat will ultimately have a payroll far in excess of the $58M cap (probably well north of $70M).  They'll use their full MLE each offseason and the LLE when it's available, and I'm sure the supporting cast will go through some changes. 

There's also flexibility in terms of how trades are allowed - trade three vet-min guys to pick up a player someone else doesn't want for $3.5M or so, turn around and trade him for a guy making 25% more salary, do little things like that and you've begun to accumulate some of the $4M - $6M salary slots you really need to have a fully fleshed-out, championship-level squad.  Look for Miami to make a lot of small trades that look like "huh, just shuffling the deck chairs" but that result in Miami taking on *more* salary (and bigger salary slots). 

The solution?





A hard salary cap.  Maximum somewhere between $60M and $65M (a little less than the luxury tax level).  No more luxury tax.  No more mid-level exemptions.  No more LLE. 

Hell, I'm not sure you even need caps on individual player salaries.  Sign players for whatever you want, as long as the TOTAL team salary does not exceed $65M.  Maximum-salary caps only serve to keep teams from being even stupider with their own monies. 

No restrictions on trades, as long as each team's total salary does not exceed the hard cap. 

I'm sure the union would force a minimum-salary requirement as well, probably a figure around $35M.

If a team like Miami can figure out a way to acquire three premier talents (and pay them accordingly), fine - but let's eliminate all of the loopholes and exemptions that make it relatively easy for them to also pay all of the good supporting players they still need.
I like your proposal a lot. I'm not sure who would be more opposed to it, the players or the owners. If the union really represents all the players, this would help the majority of them I think by making the imbalances in salaries go down so the average guy is making more. The owners would spend less for the most part, but owners of teams like the Heat, Celtics, Lakers, Bulls and Magic that currently use these loopholes would probably oppose it. Additionally, teams like the Knicks, Nets, Cavaliers Clippers that have been poised to use them in the future may also strike them down. A real interesting idea though.TP!

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2010, 12:23:06 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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Thinking it over, I do think you would need to have max-salary restrictions, otherwise guys like BronBron and Wade would tend to gravitate towards each account for 35% - 40% of each team's total cap space.  The union would want salaries to be more evenly disbursed, so I think you'd keep the maximum salary at around $16.25M (25% of the total cap).

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2010, 12:32:09 PM »

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A hard cap doesn't really jive with guaranteed contracts.  Some teams would be at the cap going into the summer, then have to cut someone to sign their draft pick.  Many other teams wouldn't be able to make moves to add talent because of their salary committments.  Perhaps the trades that resulted would be really, really weird.  OTOH, perhaps the team that gets the best player might not "win" the trade, or that perhaps talented players could be traded more often?

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2010, 12:37:39 PM »

Online Celtics4ever

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They won't ivestigate it because they think it hurts us.   Anytime Stern has had a chance to get the Celtics he does.  I can't wait to hook up with him in Hades.

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2010, 12:40:13 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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A hard cap doesn't really jive with guaranteed contracts.  Some teams would be at the cap going into the summer, then have to cut someone to sign their draft pick.  Many other teams wouldn't be able to make moves to add talent because of their salary committments.  Perhaps the trades that resulted would be really, really weird.  OTOH, perhaps the team that gets the best player might not "win" the trade, or that perhaps talented players could be traded more often?

Meh...  it works in the NFL.  Set the rules and they'll figure it out.  If you've got $64M in committed salary and need to give $2M to your rookie, you'll just have to find someone who will take one of your players off your hands.  If you don't want to do that, you just need to build enough cushion into your budget each year to pay your rooks and accumulate new talent.

Of course, the other direction the CBA could potentially move towards is the NFL's "big-signing bonus as your guaranteed money" structure.  Don't see the union agreeing to that, and my preference is always for a simpler approach.

EDIT: One other weakness of my proposal that I still need to ponder...  what happens if the cap goes down, as was expected to happen this season?  The union's going to demand that the cap be linked to total league revenues.  What happens to teams that are close to the cap, and the cap comes down $3M or $4M?  One possibility would be defining player salaries as a percentage of the cap (i.e. LeBron signs for "25% of the Cap" instead of a fixed dollar amount), in which case a rising cap means he (and everyone else in the league) gets paid more $$ and if the cap falls everyone takes a proportionate haircut.

But, that's complicated, and I don't like complicated.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 01:48:00 PM by the_Bird »

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2010, 12:53:29 PM »

Offline Cman

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are you kidding? Stern is loving this, he's fully morphed into Vince McMahon now.

One thing Stern is not going to enjoy is how loudly he gets booed in Madison Square Garden during the draft 2011.

Then again, he could just move the draft to Miami.  Clever, David Stern, very clever.
Celtics fan for life.

Re: NBA Should Investigate Tampering by Heat
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2010, 01:36:54 PM »

Offline birdwatcher

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Right on about Stern--now let the gambling really begin!! Over and under on how many fouls called per game against the Heat? Or how many all-star starters from the heat? Or who sells more Jerseys--LeBron, Wade or Bosh. Maybe Stern should have his own heat Jersey-his number will be $$. Double dollars, cash money baby!