Author Topic: Paul Pierce opts out  (Read 23000 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #60 on: June 30, 2010, 12:27:26 AM »

Offline FallGuy

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1941
  • Tommy Points: 70
Would we have enough for a max free agent if we let Pierce, and Ray go, along with Sheed's retirement?

By my math, we would be 500k short.

And I don't look at this as Pierce turning his back on the city: it was the sensible business decision.

I've got a total of $35.5 million between KG, Perk, Davis and Rondo.

Add in a cap hold of maybe 1.5 million for Bradley, and you still should have about 19 million to use on a run at a free agent.

A number, that makes you say Hmmmm.

You also need cap holds for the rest of the 12-man roster. Figure about $40M all told.

So you'd have to fill 7 positions with about $16M, with no mid-level exception and no ability to exceed the cap.*

Boston is not a player for the max guys this summer. The place they could make something happen is in trade.


*Most of this appropriated from CelticsHub, who did a nice analysis recently. Any errors are mine.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 12:32:49 AM by FallGuy »

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #61 on: June 30, 2010, 12:29:39 AM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34128
  • Tommy Points: 1612
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics

What then draws players to Boston?

I think the major media market and Rajon Rondo would put us at 3rd or 4th place in the priority line behind Miami and Chicago.




These guys are thinking 'package deals'.  They want to go somewhere with some one.  

Not to mention I wouldn't be surprised if the top stars already know where they are going.  They just want to milk the process.  (much like the NBA wants them to.  More excitement and more media coverage for the league)


Quote
 Offer to make them captain of the most storied franchise in nba history. I hear the position's opening up..

These players don't really care about that anymore.  

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #62 on: June 30, 2010, 12:32:05 AM »

Online KungPoweChicken

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2105
  • Tommy Points: 229
Let Pierce and Ray sign with other teams. Sign LeBron with a max contract. Sign Mike Miller with the MLE.


Rondo
Miller
James
Garnett
Perkins



How much of a dream scenario would that be?

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #63 on: June 30, 2010, 12:33:17 AM »

Offline Green Pride

  • Josh Minott
  • Posts: 122
  • Tommy Points: 10
For those who were hoping we could use Pierce's opt out to create cap room, sign free agents, and then re-sign him using the Bird rights, as best as I can tell, Larry Coon's FAQ on the cap suggests that we can't do that. If we renounce Pierce and/or Allen, we clear the space, but by definition, we can't then use their Bird rights:

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

29. Can a team sign all the free agents it wants (up to the cap limit) and THEN re-sign its own free agents using the Bird exception?

Yes, but there's a restriction. A team's free agents continue to count as team salary (against the salary cap). This charge is called the "free agent amount." So there may not be enough money under the cap to sign another team's free agent, because the team's own free agents are taking up all their cap room.

30. How much do free agents count against their team's salary cap?

The free agent amount depends on the player's previous salary and what kind of free agent he is:
Kind of free agent    Previous salary    Free agent amount
Any    Minimum salary    Portion of minimum salary not reimbursed by the league (see question number 11)
Larry Bird, except when coming off rookie scale contract    At least the average salary    150% of his previous salary*
Larry Bird, except when coming off rookie scale contract    Below the average salary    200% of his previous salary*
Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract    At least the average salary    250% of his previous salary*
Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract    Below the average salary    300% of his previous salary*
Larry Bird, following the third season of his rookie scale contract    Any    The maximum salary the team can pay the player using the Bird exception
Early Bird, following the second season of his rookie scale contract    Any    The maximum salary the team can pay the player using the Early Bird exception
Early Bird (all others)    Any    130% of his previous salary*
Non-Bird    Any    120% of his previous salary*

* Not to exceed the player's maximum salary, based on years of service (see question number 11). If the difference in salary between the last two seasons of the player's contract exceeded $4 million, then the percentage is based on the average salary in the last two seasons of the contract.

A restricted free agent counts against his team's salary cap by the greatest of:

    * His free agent amount (as defined in the table above)
    * The amount of his qualifying offer (see question number 36)
    * The first year salary from any offer sheet the player signs with another team (see question number 36)

Here's an example of how to use this chart: Let's say a player who made $5 million during the previous season becomes an Early-Bird free agent, and is not coming off the second season of his rookie scale contract. According to this chart, the player's free agent amount is 130% of his previous salary. So $6.5 million is included in his team's team salary while he is a free agent.

31. Why do free agents continue to count against a team's cap?

It closes another loophole. Teams otherwise would be able to sign other teams' free agents using their cap room, and then turn their attention to their own free agents using the Bird exceptions. This rule restricts their ability to do that. It doesn't close this loophole completely -- for example, in 2005 Michael Redd's free agent amount was $6 million, even though the Bucks intended to re-sign him for the maximum salary. By waiting to sign Redd last, the Bucks were able to take advantage of the difference by signing Bobby Simmons. Had they signed Redd first, they would have had no cap room to sign Simmons.

32. When do free agents stop counting against the team's cap?

When any one of the following three things happen:

    * The player signs a new contract with the same team. When this happens, the player's effect on his team's team salary is based on his new salary.
    * The player signs with a different team. As soon as this happens, the player becomes the new team's problem, and his salary no longer counts against his old team.
    * The team renounces the player. (See question number 33)

33. What does renouncing a player mean?

As detailed in question number 30, free agents continue to be included in team salary. By renouncing a player, a team gives up its right to use the Larry Bird, Early Bird, or Non-Bird exceptions (see question number 19) to re-sign that player. A renounced player no longer counts toward team salary, so teams use renouncement to gain additional cap room. After renouncing a player, the team is still permitted to re-sign that player, but must either have enough cap room to fit the salary, or sign the player using the Minimum Salary exception. The exception to this is an Early Bird free agent who is coming off the second season of his rookie scale contract. Such players, when renounced, are treated as Non-Bird free agents.

If the player does not sign with any team (his prior team or any other team) for the entire season, then his renouncement continues. In other words, the team is not permitted to renounce a player, let him lie idle for the year, then re-sign him the following summer using Bird rights. However, if the player re-signs with his prior team, then his renouncement is no longer in effect when his contract ends. For example, if a team renounces their Larry Bird rights to a player, then re-signs that player to a one-year contract using cap room, then the player is once again a Larry Bird free agent the following summer.

After renouncing a player, a team can still trade the player in a sign-and-trade agreement (see question number 78).
34. Can the renouncement be renounced? In other words, can a team un-renounce a player and then sign him using a Bird exception?

Only in one specific circumstance -- when they renounce one or more of their players in order to create enough cap room to sign another team's restricted free agent, but the restricted free agent's original team matches the offer sheet and keeps him. If that happens, the team can rescind the renouncement. There are a couple exceptions to this -- they can't rescind a renouncement if doing so takes them from below the salary cap to above it; or if they are above the cap and rescinding the renouncement takes them farther above the cap than they were before the renouncement.

See question number 36 for more information on restricted free agency.

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #64 on: June 30, 2010, 12:33:30 AM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34128
  • Tommy Points: 1612
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
Let Pierce and Ray sign with other teams. Sign LeBron with a max contract. Sign Mike Miller with the MLE.


Rondo
Miller
James
Garnett
Perkins



How much of a dream scenario would that be?


There is no MLE for teams that have cap room.  Only for teams that are over the cap.

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #65 on: June 30, 2010, 12:34:06 AM »

Offline Kuberski33

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7417
  • Tommy Points: 572
These guys are thinking 'package deals'.  They want to go somewhere with some one.  

Not to mention I wouldn't be surprised if the top stars already know where they are going.  They just want to milk the process.  (much like the NBA wants them to.  More excitement and more media coverage for the league)
Does Stern really want this?  There are going to be some real crappy teams in this league that may suck for a long, long time.  How can you sell say the LeBron-less Cavs to anyone?

I don't think Stern is happy about this at all.

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2010, 12:34:31 AM »

Offline LakerPete

  • Hugo Gonzalez
  • Posts: 58
  • Tommy Points: 21
Quote from: Mr October
I've got a total of $35.5 million between KG, Perk, Davis and Rondo.

Add in a cap hold of maybe 1.5 million for Bradley, and you still should have about 19 million to use on a run at a free agent.

A number, that makes you say Hmmmm.

Both Pierce & Allen would have cap holds that would put you over the salary cap until they signed elsewhere, unless you renounced them. Even if you did exactly that, there would be a $473K cap hold on 7 slots on the roster, as is the case when there are less than 12 players. That's approximately $3.5M, so when you subtract that from the $19M that you're referring to, you're around $15.5M. A max deal will probably start between $16.2M - $16.6M, depending on what the actual salary cap comes in at.

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2010, 12:36:03 AM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34128
  • Tommy Points: 1612
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
These guys are thinking 'package deals'.  They want to go somewhere with some one. 

Not to mention I wouldn't be surprised if the top stars already know where they are going.  They just want to milk the process.  (much like the NBA wants them to.  More excitement and more media coverage for the league)
Does Stern really want this?  There are going to be some real crappy teams in this league that may suck for a long, long time.  How can you sell say the LeBron-less Cavs to anyone?

I don't think Stern is happy about this at all.


Where ever these players are, Stern will sell them.  It's not like he is losing them to the NFL.


No matter where these guys sign, there will be dead teams. 

Where do you think he would rather the dead teams be, Toronto and Cleveland or NY?


And he wants the circus.  Where ever these guys sign, the lead up is going to cause circuses all over the NBA.

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2010, 12:37:48 AM »

Online KungPoweChicken

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2105
  • Tommy Points: 229
Let Pierce and Ray sign with other teams. Sign LeBron with a max contract. Sign Mike Miller with the MLE.


Rondo
Miller
James
Garnett
Perkins



How much of a dream scenario would that be?


There is no MLE for teams that have cap room.  Only for teams that are over the cap.




If we signed a max guy wouldn't that put us over the cap, so we could then use the MLE? Or it doesn't work like that?

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2010, 12:38:55 AM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34128
  • Tommy Points: 1612
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
Let Pierce and Ray sign with other teams. Sign LeBron with a max contract. Sign Mike Miller with the MLE.


Rondo
Miller
James
Garnett
Perkins



How much of a dream scenario would that be?


There is no MLE for teams that have cap room.  Only for teams that are over the cap.




If we signed a max guy wouldn't that put us over the cap, so we could then use the MLE? Or it doesn't work like that?


Nope.  MLE are for team that are not under the cap.  It is an exception for teams coming into the new season with no cap space and giving them a way to add FA. 

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2010, 12:39:10 AM »

Offline FallGuy

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1941
  • Tommy Points: 70
Let Pierce and Ray sign with other teams. Sign LeBron with a max contract. Sign Mike Miller with the MLE.


Rondo
Miller
James
Garnett
Perkins



How much of a dream scenario would that be?

There is no MLE for teams that have cap room.  Only for teams that are over the cap.


If we signed a max guy wouldn't that put us over the cap, so we could then use the MLE? Or it doesn't work like that?

If you're under the cap, you can't go over the cap to sign a max guy (unless you have his Bird rights).

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2010, 12:39:36 AM »

Offline celticsclay

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16188
  • Tommy Points: 1407
To be honest I'm not even sure what I want to happen here or what is best overall. Obviously him signing a three year 15 million deal would ideal, but isn't going to happen. However, the idea of pierce playing for another team makes me really unhappy. Also picturing KG on the team without pierce or allen is just a wierd vision.

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2010, 12:42:00 AM »

Offline jdpapa3

  • Al Horford
  • ***
  • Posts: 3884
  • Tommy Points: 85


These guys are thinking 'package deals'.  They want to go somewhere with some one.  


Eh, if Rondo was on the market(which he very well could've been), people would be thinking package deals with him. Pg's are very important to these guys seemingly from the CP3 rumors.

And Fallguy: if the Celtics aren't FA players because they'd have to sign a bunch of minimum contract players, then neither are Miami and the Knicks. We'd honestly be in the race.

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2010, 12:42:35 AM »

Offline Chief Macho

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1247
  • Tommy Points: 84
Its time to let him walk.  The problem is that this team a year older is not going to be good enough to win the title even if it resigns PP and Ray.  They need another top player at this point and they cannot afford it.  

I'm actually surprised that there isn't more support for letting him walk.  I love him too, but Paul's leg's are done.  

Re: Paul Pierce opts out
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2010, 12:42:53 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7620
  • Tommy Points: 280
http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=5341636
Quote
Asked recently to gauge the likelihood of re-signing Pierce, Celtics vice president of basketball operations Danny Ainge said last week on WEEI Radio in Boston: "I don't know because he may be able to get a long-term contract somewhere else. It may be better than what we have [to offer]."

Personally, I think that's the right position to take regarding Paul. Hopefully, DA doesn't let sentimentality rule him and overpay Paul. Like I said, I love the guy and what he's done for this organization but not so much that we forfeit the near future to bring him back.

Just for the record, I have no problem signing Paul to a longterm extension - just not for big money.

well, Danny has to say that. anything else and this move could seem pre-arranged which I believe would violate negotiating rules...

but aside from that, my question to you is: what's big money? I mean he was due 22 million this season.

Anything over $15m per yr is too much. Even that's pushing it, IMO... Ideally. I'd like to see Paul sign a 3yr deal worth $35m, frontloaded so we still have cap flexibility in 2012 when KG comes off of the books. Maybe a TO on a 4th year...

3 years and 45 million seems pretty reasonable. it makes him opting out profitable but also helps free up money for this season....

It frees up luxury tax, yes. But if he resigns for that amount, we still have no money to spend in free agency - not unless Ray walks & signs with another team or resigns with us for A LOT less. Until they're both squared away, they both have cap holds of about $20m... So, yea...

It’s basically for us to get upgrades at SG or SF this offseason... By the time either signed anywhere else all the better players will already be gone.

Come back with PP and Ray, but have their contracts coincide with the expiring of KGs.