Author Topic: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time  (Read 17271 times)

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Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2010, 05:49:39 PM »

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The Lakers are the best franchise.  They have played in half of the NBA Finals (all time - 31 total) and have missed the playoffs just 5 times in their 62 years of existence (and lost in the first round just 7 times).  In otherwords, in 50 of their 62 years the Lakers have won at least one playoff series.  
They're the most consistent, but I don't agree that they're the best.
Most playoff appearances.  Most wins.  Best win percentage.  Most Finals appearances (and only 1 less title overall).  

If you asked this question to any non-Celtic or non-Laker fan, 99% would say the Lakers are the better franchise.  

99% of people would say, who has the most titles?

It's simple.

On the contrary, I think the vast majority of people would say.. "You talkin' about the Pierce and Bird and the Celtics?  How about Magic?  Kareem?  Shaq?  Kobe? No comparison man.  The Lakers win like, every year.  Before '08 the Celtics sucked for like a really long time."

I'd say the later generations would probably agree with this sentiment.  There's a long gap from Big 3 to New 3.  People also seem to be more caught up in the present and are sometimes too quick to dismiss the past. 

If you ask this question 20-25 years ago, its not really much of a debate. 
well of course 25 years ago it wasn't much of a debate, of course 25 years ago the Lakers had 6 less championships then the Celtics.

Hence, why I brought it up. 


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Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2010, 06:23:59 PM »

Offline RebusRankin

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Boston has more titles, more HOFs and a better head to head record in Finals matchups. Gives us a slight edge.

How about him having the Spurs #3 and the Bulls #4? Both franchises have basically one excellent decade.

Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2010, 06:56:49 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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Boston has more titles, more HOFs and a better head to head record in Finals matchups. Gives us a slight edge.

How about him having the Spurs #3 and the Bulls #4? Both franchises have basically one excellent decade.

Bulls 3, Pistons 4, Spurs 5

Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2010, 07:23:02 PM »

Offline ben

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Gross

Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2010, 07:31:23 PM »

Offline aporel#18

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Ok, look at the real history.

The Lakers of Minneapolis won the BAA title in 1949, that is not an NBA title, so the Minneapolis Lakers got 4 NBA titles. Ok?

11 titles in LA + 4 titles in Minneapolis = 15 NBA titles

I'm not very good at math, but you can see it clear.

If the Lakers (or the Flakers, or the Fakers) from Minneapolis/LA/Kansas City maybe sometime... can claim for the 1949 BAA title, why not for the 1948 NBL title? so they would have 17, and finally be the best-of-the-world-and-the-whole-universe-MVP-wanting-it-more-than-anybody. Please...

But then the Sacramento Kings will claim for their own title in 1946 as the Rochester Royals, and the Pistons can say the same about their back-to-back in 1944 and 1945, when they were in Fort Wayne.

Would you laugh at the Atlanta Hawks showing pride for the Sant Louis title in 1958? Yes
Would you laugh at the 76ers claiming the Syracuse Nationals title in 1955? yes, of course

would you laugh at the Golden State Warriors claiming their 1947 BAA title as an NBA title? even more

follow the Flakers path and you'll find yourself claiming for the Original Celtics titles back in the 1920s.

and by that reasoning, the Washington Bullets title in 1978 has nothing to do with the Wizards, right? They can't claim that title as they can't claim the Baltimore Bullets title from 1948.

Ok, Lakers, if you want to claim the Minneapolis titles, change your name to "Minneapolis to LA Lakers", or "Minny-LA Lakers", that would bode well with your franchise.

Rankings are stupid, but it's even worse to ignore the facts. The Minny-LA Lakers can claim an NBL title, a BAA title and 15 NBA titles. We are talking about NBA history, right?

Hollinger and all the Co-b ballwashers can take all their BS and stuff it straight up where the sun never shines. Ball don't Lie!

Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2010, 10:03:18 PM »

Online Moranis

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I guess Yale and Princeton are the best college football teams of all time.  After all they have the most championships and that is apparently all that matter.
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Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2010, 12:12:59 AM »

Offline mgent

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Celtics rule, Lakers drool.

Die Hollinger.
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Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2010, 12:46:58 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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17 (Boston) > 16 (Lakers).

Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2010, 01:12:53 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I guess Yale and Princeton are the best college football teams of all time.  After all they have the most championships and that is apparently all that matter.
Because that's a good analogy for the NBA.

Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2010, 02:25:09 AM »

Offline Rondo_is_better

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Discounting the city relocation, I think the Lakers edge out the Celtics at this point. The Lakers have had more consistent excellence and there is only a 1 title difference. It is impressive that they have been so consistent in recent decades while the league has been so much more competitive than 50 years ago.

Having Shaq and Kobe really put them over the top. We could really use a dominant elite player like that in their prime.

Wherever you stand on this issue, it is quite ridiculous to not be able to appreciate the arguments for either the Lakers or Celtics.

The bolded above is really not accurate. The league has gotten less competative with expansion and talent pool dilution. If you look back at the Russell,Cousy, Havlicek, and Bird eras, there were fewer teams and (particularly in the Russell years) must teams had at least 2 hall of famers.
Grab a few boards, keep the TO's under 14, close out on shooters and we'll win.

Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2010, 02:30:17 AM »

Offline BoyBee

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This is the kind of stuff that used to drive RED AUERBACH nuts.  As far back as the early 60s – just a few short years after the Minneapolis Lakers became extinct – the Hollywood media elite declared that Los Angeles was now “the center of the basketball universe.”  This bit of unsubstantiated goulash was served up repeatedly, with a straight face, in spite of the fact that the Celtics had 1)  more titles than the Lakers, and 2) owned the Lakers historically in the NBA Finals, when it matters most. 

They still do.

The “center of the basketball universe” claim is debunked thoroughly in one of the best books (period) that you’ll ever read:  Winning the Hard Way (Red Auerbach).  Aptly enough, this fabricated issue is exposed in the chapter titled It’s Easier With a Typewriter.  Mr. Hollinger plies his trade behind a computer keyboard these days, but the misleading drumbeat emanating dully from LA has not changed in 50 years.

Where to begin?  With the ultimate measure of team’s greatness, of course:  championships.  The BOSTON CELTICS (not the Minneapolis-Oshkosh-Tallahassee-Boston Celtics) have earned 17 championships.  In one city.  That makes little Boston, Massachusetts the gold standard of basketball success by any standard you can manufacture. 

And boy do those new standards keep coming!

How about head to head, winner-take-all battles against your closest rivals when all the chips are on the line?  When the time came to decide which team would take the other’s lunch money in front of a televised audience, the results are:

Boston Celtics:  9
Los Angeles Lakers:  3

There’s your real story.  By the way, in a more just world, those numbers would read:

Boston Celtics: 11 -  Los Angeles Lakers: 1.   (We’ll talk… there are so many other real-time myths to debunk at the moment… such as…)

Performance in the NBA Finals:

Until last year, the Lakers actually had a losing record in their combined NBA Finals appearances.  Hardly the hallmark of a championship franchise.  That kind of performance in any other major professional sport does not earn you the title of “best ever.”  Just ask the Buffalo Bills.

Oh by the way, The Boston Celtics have won 17 championships in 21 Finals appearances.  Questions?

Number of Appearances in an NBA Final:

The Lakers have 31, Boston has 21.  Now, saying that the Western conference has historically been the weak step-sister to the Eastern conference is to declare that water is wet.  The Celtics spent years punching their way through Wilt’s 76ers, Dr. J’s 76ers, the BadBoy Pistons and the Knicks of the late 60s/early70s, over and over, just to get to the Finals.  This year alone, the Celtics convincingly handled the Cavaliers & the Magic, inarguably the strongest teams to not make it into the Finals. 

What deadly rival did the Lakers have to contend with all these years?   The Golden State Warriors?  Portland had a couple of good years in there, I guess…  The Suns are a good team, but are they great?  Hmm… Were the Chicago Zephyrs more of a handful for George Mikan and his champions from Minny in the 1940s than I’m aware of?  And speaking of the “Minneapolis Lakers”:

The Modern Era:

Saying that basketball during this time even remotely resembles the basketball of even the 60s, say, is ludicrous.  There was no 3-second rule during most of this time, meaning that the 6’10” , 290-pound Mr. Mikan simply sat under the basket and dropped in super-bunnies.  There was no one to touch this giant. 

Add in the fact that the lane was 12 feet wide during this time, not 6.  This game was such a tedious, unfair travesty that the league had to address these issues or lose their shaky fan-base to the lure of speakeasies and the devilish temptations of that new Charleston dance. 

Did I mention that there was no 24-second shot clock either?  People are still talking about that 15 to 14 game between the Rochester Royals and the Syracuse Nationals.  Real nail-biter that was.  Are these really the same people who decry all those Celtic titles from the 60s?  What fan with any real pride in their team and a sense of history would even dare to claim titles from another city in what is essentially the dead-ball era of basketball? 

Oh I know:  a Los Angeles Laker fan.  [aporel#18 breaks down the phony Laker titles beautifully in his previous post.  This ridiculous double-standard for the Lakers gots to go].


Home-Grown vs Profiteers:

Red Auerbach vs. Phil Jackson.  Let’s put it this way:  Red Auerbach was the ONLY coach of the Celtics – no defensive assistant coaches, no “big man” coaches.  It was all Red.  He was the guy counting heads at the gate ½ hour before tip-off, the guy wangling with airlines to get the franchise a better group rate, and so much more.  And, in relation to this particular subject:  the only scout the Celtics had was Red Auerbach.  That’s right, he’s the guy who took a chance on unknown Sam Jones out of North Carolina College & a defensive specialist named KC Jones.

These guys were not instant HOFers.  They were not big-name free-agent profiteers lured to the media crap-storm of Los Angeles at the height of their stellar careers (see Wilt, see Shaq, see Gasol) by a limitless payroll cornucopia (see Jerry Buss). 

Red built the Celtics from the ground-up, with intelligence and sweat.  His players found glory because they adhered to the Celtic Way:  play defense & distribute the ball to the open man.  No star system:  this is a family.  You train the guy who is going to replace you, and you do it gladly, because the team’s glory will be your glory.  Marginal dudes became HOFers because they played together! as Doc kept repeating during time outs.  That’s the Celtics way – it’s a family way that is so powerful and life-affirming that Bill Russell said, to paraphrase:  “After being in that locker room, with those guys… heaven would be a step down.”

Phil Jackson strapped a saddle on already-assembled teams (the Bulls and the Lakers).  He may be a great coach, but Red Auerbach is the best there ever was.  He turned basketball players into brothers for life. 

What this organization has meant to be goes beyond sport, and I am writing with a lot of gusto, I know.  But I am proud of them.  They showed the entire world what happens when you “trust your teammate, and trust yourself”, as Doc kept reminding them.  It’s a life lesson for every fan, every child, for everyone who has hardly anything left to hold onto but their faith in each other.

My wife stopped watching with 6 minutes left in game 7.  She had to get up early.  She watches snatches of games here and there & knows who is who, and has listened to me babble excitedly through all the ups and downs, through the tellings of everyone’s story.  When I told her the next morning that we had lost, she started crying.  She confessed that the tension of those last minutes was too much for her to watch.  It was like watching brothers struggling together against unfair odds (the loss of Perk… not to mention the zebras).

And I realized that the best part of this 3-year trip had been all the moments in which we shared it together.  That can’t ever be lost.  My team played and acted like a family, and almost grabbed another brass ring in spite of all the odds.  And the same can be said for all you guys, people who cared so facking much about this team that you kept returning to see what was up.

… Didn’t think I’d write quite this much.  Might be a part II if anyone survives part I – I could go on and on.  But as tonight’s last testament to my team:

It was twenty-two years of untimely deaths, crippling injuries & crazy-bouncing ping-pong balls that kept the Boston Celtics team out of the limelight, and nothing else.  The Lakers simply waltzed into the void, and that doesn’t bestow greatness no matter how you cut it.  I can’t take seeing our glorious franchise marginalized by people with their own agendas in order to inflate a franchise that has had every trumpet blaring behind it for over 50 years.  And we’re STILL better.

Red said you must always roll up your sleeves and stand up for what’s yours if you want to keep what you’ve earned.  The Boston Celtics are the greatest franchise in the history of the NBA in spite of everything.  It’s proven.  The numbers speak the final truth no matter how you twist them around.

Mr. Hollinger ought to have a more soulful feel for the game that provides his livelihood.

[This one’s for you, Red.]

Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2010, 03:17:04 AM »

Offline CoachCowens

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The Cleveland Browns have 8 championships, 2 more then the Steelers and 3 more then the Cowboys, but does anyone actually consider the Browns to be a better franchise?

It is 17 to 16, it isn't 17 to 10.  You guys are all being utterly ridiculous. 

Don't you mean the Baltimore Ravens.

Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2010, 04:08:58 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Discounting the city relocation, I think the Lakers edge out the Celtics at this point. The Lakers have had more consistent excellence and there is only a 1 title difference. It is impressive that they have been so consistent in recent decades while the league has been so much more competitive than 50 years ago.

Having Shaq and Kobe really put them over the top. We could really use a dominant elite player like that in their prime.

Wherever you stand on this issue, it is quite ridiculous to not be able to appreciate the arguments for either the Lakers or Celtics.

The bolded above is really not accurate. The league has gotten less competative with expansion and talent pool dilution. If you look back at the Russell,Cousy, Havlicek, and Bird eras, there were fewer teams and (particularly in the Russell years) must teams had at least 2 hall of famers.
No, my original statement was correct. Back then there were fewer teams to compete with since (1) there were fewer teams and (2) many teams didn't actually take the sport seriously. Auerbach could do silly deals with teams who weren't interested in being competitive, far worse than any lopsided deal we see today.

The "2 hall of famers" point is irrelevant since the qualifications for being a HOFer are relative. Most of those HOFers would be bench warmers today.

It is a lot easier to accumulate titles in an 8 team NBA than in a 30 team league.

And try looking at the standings from back then. The league was not more competitive in the 60s.

Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2010, 04:40:37 AM »

Offline jjbay7

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Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. the lakers!! theres not a sports team i hate worse in all of sports. the colors. buying players. on and on...we all know in nba celtics best franchise. maybe in all of professional sports.
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Re: Hollinger Declares Lakers Best Franchise of All Time
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2010, 05:12:36 AM »

Offline ben

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this thread is gross.  celtics have had the most titles in the nba for over 50 years.  Every franchise has low periods where they don't win titles for a while.  when the celtics lakers play in the finals, its 9 to 3.  therefore celtics win.  plus lakers never had russell, the greatest teammate and greatest winner of all time.