Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan

[RJ87]

But he was great in front of a camera and didn't play for a team that other fan bases hated from birth, so he's impervious to both criticism or accurate memory. 

As I said in my post above, Kobe's bad image isn't a media distortion. His own coach called him out in a book. Kobe has a "legacy" of being selfish because has HAS been selfish. Again, like i said - I can't recall Jordan quitting on his team in the playoffs to show them how much they needed him.

[bobdelt]

6 for 24.

Kobe is his own worst enemy = not on Jordan level.

Kobe wasn't the best player on all but 2 of his rings. (Gasol this year, and Shaq for 2).


Kobe really didnt deserve MVP this year.

In all fairness, even though I hate Kobe, Jordan never played against any type of defense that comes anywhere near the celtics defense. It shut Kobe down in 2008 and almost beat him again this year, and I don't think Jordan would have faired much better. Jordan was great, but he never had another great team to compete against, he lucked out.

That's hard to say, because, Jordan won. How were the other team inferior? Losing to Jordan? Paradoxical.

The same thing the Fakers say when anyone mentioned Russel, well the competition must not have been as good. But how do we know? Maybe he was just THAT GOOD, that the competition couldn't crack him.

I think Jordan had plenty of great teams to compete against, early in his career, the C's and Lakers, later the Knicks and Jazz. Any of those teams are championship caliber.

[LakerPete]

I sense some purple & gold tinted glasses here.
Last I heard, Shaq didn't leave Phoenix & Cleve on bad terms. It was a difference in playing style, moreso than locker room disputes. He could still return to Cleve, but they're a team in disarray right now for other reasons

He & Nash were on bad terms, and Nash expressed as much to Kerr when he was a free agent last summer. Shaq was subsequently traded.

Shaq was reportedly actively undermining Mike Brown this year during the Celtic series as well. It's a pattern that's consistent with his interactions in Orlando, Miami, & Los Angeles as well. His feuds with others is well documented, and he's the common thread. It's pretty obvious who the problem is.

Phil Jackson's book paints a very negative picture of Kobe. Whereas Jackson says coaching Shaq was a great experience, he pretty much puts the blame on Bryant not wanting to be the sidekick for the decision to blow that team up.

Bryant may be a different guy now, but realistically, that team could've won a lot more if it had stayed together. It took the Lakers a few seasons to recover. And I will look at the aftermath, Shaq went to another team and helped them to a title in 2006, while co-existing with another star.

Highly doubtful that team would have won much more if it stayed together, even if Kobe re-signed. He & Shaq (who had a grandfathered, pre-CBA contract) would have accounted for the entire salary cap, and our third best player would have been Luke Walton. Yes, Shaq coexisted with another star and it yielded short term benefits. He was still a great player. But the Shaq trade also put the Lakers in the position to have a sustainable run at titles, as we're seeing now. As Jackson also says in that book, any team that's built around Kobe has a chance to win a title.

And let's not pretend that Kobe publicly asking to be traded at the start of the 2007 season because the team wasn't winning didn't happen.

And let's not pretend that Jordan didn't do the exact same thing when he had subpar teammates. Read the Jordan Rules.

And of course, Kobe quitting on his team in a playoff game a few years back against Phoenix to show them how much they needed him will FOREVER sour people against him. Jordan would NEVER do that.

Another popular myth. Kobe completely took over the 2nd quarter of that game to the tune of 19 points, as the Lakers had already fallen behind by 17 after the first quarter. We were down 15 at halftime, because Phoenix had already scored around 65 points. It always amuses me to hear the "Jordan would never..." arguments, because they never properly account for Chicago's exceptional defense. Until this year, Kobe's never been on a top notch defensive team. Jordan had some awful shooting games in big situations as well, but they were always in games because of their D.

Anyway, the Lakers had won the 3 games that they did with Kobe taking fewer shots, and Jackson specifically asked him to keep going to Odom, Smush Parker, & Luke Walton and cut back on his shots. Kobe did that, and the his teammates' shots didn't fall. And more importantly, the Lakers didn't get any stops. The source for this information is long time Laker sideline reporter John Ireland. That second half was by design.

As for the bad guy image Kobe has, that's all on him. His attempt to be charismatic comes off has forced and fake. It doesn't help that he always seems to use his daughters as props to give off the nice family man image. That ill-fated night in Colorado will always be a cloud over him, and fans will always think twice about who he is off court.

Totally. Had he been more gregarious with the media, he could have been the boorish, womanizing, gambling, **** that Jordan is and they would just turn the other cheek. And his poor shooting games would be less dissected as well, just as was the case with MJ.

Heck, I'll even throw another name out there. Magic Johnson. He was a great player, but not nearly as good as he's remembered to be. But he had that smile and that great personality, so his shortcomings are glossed over and he's deified. Personally, all I care about is what happens between the lines. I don't care about the media game. Jeff Van Gundy articulated this point perfectly during Game 6.

I've gotten away from the point though. Kobe, in my eyes and the eyes of many, will never be Jordan. He can try all he wants; change his jersey # from 8 to 24 to try and 1-up him, but Jordan was a transcendant talent. He made other players around him better; he always saw the big picture. That's the difference to me.

Of course he won't be. It's blasphemy for many people to even consider. I'll just keep enjoying the titles and watching guys like Pau Gasol magically go from being a borderline all-star to the "best offensive big man in the game" once they play alongside Kobe, while everyone else downplays his abilities.

[Dybdal]

First, the flu game is but a minor part of his legacy. He would still be viewed the same without that game. And who's to say that if healthy he wouldn't have a better, even more memorable game?

Absolutly not, and saying it would be more memorable is laughable.. your talking about what most TV experts regard as the best single player preformance of ALL TIME, thats not minor in any book.

Second, the "luck" of being healthy is a bit irrelevant, isn't it? First, because that applies to literally everyone.

Yeah thats the point of luck, some have it others dont.
Saying health is irelavent is again silly.. because that would mean a discussion about Grant Hill would not involve any of his injurys.. or does luck only count when something bad happens?

And on top of luck, there is conditioning. Jordan was always in excellent condition, other players who had great peak years but declined fast, like shaq, weren't.

All the conditioning in the world will not hold you injury free in the NBA, it plays a part of it.. but that isnt why good people go down with injurys when others dont

And I don't think the baseball thing would have taken away from his motivation. He might not have been as fresh in his later years, but he'd still be amazing.

He left Basketball because he thought he had achived everything he should and felt unmotivated and more motivated to play Baseball because of his father dieing.. it was only when he came into the bulls training facilitys to play some pickup games that he found out that he missed the game.

Saying that it would not have mattered is again iffy to me, when the man has been on record saying he was unmotivated after his first 3 championships.

Finally, Kobe had the same opportunity to make that fairy tale. The only problem is that he is not anywhere as good as Michael Jordan.

Kobe's best is Jordan's average. Kobe would have had that same fairytale career if he had succeeded after pushing Shaq out of LA. He would have had the same fairytale career if he wasn't such an egomaniac that winning his way was more important than winning, period.He crapped the bed in 04, was irrelevant from 05-07 because HE pushed people away, had a bad relationship with the media because of HIS own arrogance.

Nothing to point out, this whole post isnt about Kobe its about Michael Jordan, everyone keeps assuming i somehow put him next to MJ.. i dont!

In terms of luck, Kobe has had a lot more luck than MJ ever had. Playing with Shaq from the start, with an established Phil Jackson

This i do want to comment on, because its just not true.. Michael Jordan would not play second fiddle to anyone in the world and seeing as Kobe runs around thinking he's Michael Jordan he would not do it eighter, or do you honnestly think that Michael Jordan would have done anything different than Kobe Bryant? Honnestly?

having his peak years as the league was devoid of other superstars (Jordan had to contend with Bird, Magic, etc.), key injuries to opponents that led to titles (Tim Duncan's knee in 99-00, Peja in 01-02), and reffing mistakes going his way (Blazers, Kings), and two finals against historic rivals.

Again Kobe Bryants legacy is not going to be built of the first three championships, it just isnt.. those were shaq's teams and thats how its going to go down in history.

And you somehow keep trying to convince your self that luck dosnt exsist in the 80s and 90s but it somehow does exsist when talking about Kobe Bryant

Kobe could have had the same fairy tale career. Even more, if we consider that he played for the lakers. He just wasn't good enough to take advantage of that.

Yes because he just dosnt get it, he's not as good as Michael Jordan and he never will be.. but again.. this IS NOT ABOUT KOBE

[BballTim]

If MJ never existed, the bar of greatness *still* wouldn't be Kobe.  He's not even in the top five.

When he's hot, though, Kobe can do some crazy things with the ball.  He's got more range than MJ, and makes more circus shots (probably because he takes more circus shots.)

It wasnt meant as what if Jordan never exsisted, then it would be Kobe by default, in my little rant here im not taking into account anyone else other than Kobe & Jordan (my opinon is that a combination of Magic & Bird most likely is the best player to have ever played this game, thats again just by my own opinon based on what kind of basketball i like to see) but try to forget for a moment, play into that ya old Kobe vs Jordan talk as if they every media expert was right when they say they are miles ahead of everyone else.

  Two people won multiple MVPs during Kobe's prime, and Kobe isn't one of them. Saying "He's not even in the top five" is extremely generous, unless you were only talking about shooting guards.

[CeltsRoxfan]

LakerPete, Why the F are you here??? This is a Celtics forum!!! Kudos though for making some reasonable points in your post.

Anyways back on subject Kobe was the second option in 3 of those playoff series. MJ was always the 1st. Kobe was sort of like Shaqs Scottie Pippen during those 3 title runs

[dlpin]

First, the flu game is but a minor part of his legacy. He would still be viewed the same without that game. And who's to say that if healthy he wouldn't have a better, even more memorable game?

Absolutly not, and saying it would be more memorable is laughable.. your talking about what most TV experts regard as the best single player preformance of ALL TIME, thats not minor in any book.

Second, the "luck" of being healthy is a bit irrelevant, isn't it? First, because that applies to literally everyone.

Yeah thats the point of luck, some have it others dont.
Saying health is irelavent is again silly.. because that would mean a discussion about Grant Hill would not involve any of his injurys.. or does luck only count when something bad happens?

And on top of luck, there is conditioning. Jordan was always in excellent condition, other players who had great peak years but declined fast, like shaq, weren't.

All the conditioning in the world will not hold you injury free in the NBA, it plays a part of it.. but that isnt why good people go down with injurys when others dont

And I don't think the baseball thing would have taken away from his motivation. He might not have been as fresh in his later years, but he'd still be amazing.

He left Basketball because he thought he had achived everything he should and felt unmotivated and more motivated to play Baseball because of his father dieing.. it was only when he came into the bulls training facilitys to play some pickup games that he found out that he missed the game.

Saying that it would not have mattered is again iffy to me, when the man has been on record saying he was unmotivated after his first 3 championships.

Finally, Kobe had the same opportunity to make that fairy tale. The only problem is that he is not anywhere as good as Michael Jordan.

Kobe's best is Jordan's average. Kobe would have had that same fairytale career if he had succeeded after pushing Shaq out of LA. He would have had the same fairytale career if he wasn't such an egomaniac that winning his way was more important than winning, period.He crapped the bed in 04, was irrelevant from 05-07 because HE pushed people away, had a bad relationship with the media because of HIS own arrogance.

Nothing to point out, this whole post isnt about Kobe its about Michael Jordan, everyone keeps assuming i somehow put him next to MJ.. i dont!

In terms of luck, Kobe has had a lot more luck than MJ ever had. Playing with Shaq from the start, with an established Phil Jackson

This i do want to comment on, because its just not true.. Michael Jordan would not play second fiddle to anyone in the world and seeing as Kobe runs around thinking he's Michael Jordan he would not do it eighter, or do you honnestly think that Michael Jordan would have done anything different than Kobe Bryant? Honnestly?

having his peak years as the league was devoid of other superstars (Jordan had to contend with Bird, Magic, etc.), key injuries to opponents that led to titles (Tim Duncan's knee in 99-00, Peja in 01-02), and reffing mistakes going his way (Blazers, Kings), and two finals against historic rivals.

Again Kobe Bryants legacy is not going to be built of the first three championships, it just isnt.. those were shaq's teams and thats how its going to go down in history.

And you somehow keep trying to convince your self that luck dosnt exsist in the 80s and 90s but it somehow does exsist when talking about Kobe Bryant

Kobe could have had the same fairy tale career. Even more, if we consider that he played for the lakers. He just wasn't good enough to take advantage of that.

Yes because he just dosnt get it, he's not as good as Michael Jordan and he never will be.. but again.. this IS NOT ABOUT KOBE

Are you really saying that people only talk about Jordan being the best ever because of the flu game? Would people not say he is the best ever without the flu game? You must be pretty young, because after 96 and the 72 win game there wasn't any doubt he was the best ever. The flu game is an interesting story, but in no way affects his status as the best ever.

Was MJ lucky? In many ways, yes. He could have been killed as a child, he could have been hit by a stray bullet, he could had an incurable disease. But pointing this sort of thing out is silly because it applies to literally everyone.

But in terms of career, MJ did a lot more himself than depending on "luck."

As far as it not being about Kobe, funny how the thread title is "Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan."

[dlpin]

In the last 3 Finals closeout games of Jordan's career, he went 5-19, 15-35, & 15-35. (after going 9-25 in Game 7 in the Eastern Conference Finals) But he was great in front of a camera and didn't play for a team that other fan bases hated from birth, so he's impervious to both criticism or accurate memory.  

And as you said, never played a team that approached the defensive capabilities of this Celtic squad. Go back and watch those games, and compare them to your team's defense. It isn't even close.

Regarding the defense argument: Pistons, knicks and Cavs say hi.
And funny you have to bring up Jordan's worst 3 games in 6 finals appearances, when Kobe has had worst games than that this series alone.

[Finkelskyhook]

First, the flu game is but a minor part of his legacy. He would still be viewed the same without that game. And who's to say that if healthy he wouldn't have a better, even more memorable game?

Absolutly not, and saying it would be more memorable is laughable.. your talking about what most TV experts regard as the best single player preformance of ALL TIME, thats not minor in any book.

He was plenty healthy.  That dramatic performance ranks with Pierce's wheelchair incident and Earvin's medical claim  for dramatic value and genuineness.

Jordan was indisputably great but could have been greater.  Jordan was the original receipient of officiating by a different set of rules from EVERYBODY else.  Handchecking was allowed then...But what made Jordan stand out defensively was that he was allowed to hack at the ball relentlessly and was virtually never called for a foul.  Offensively he always got an extra step that was traveling to any other player in his era.   The Byron Russell pushoff in front of the officials was the poster child moment of the Jordan Rules.  With Jordan's legendary work ethic, had he had to play under the same rules he'd have worked to find an additional edge.  He didn't need to.  It was given to him.  My memory may desert me, but I can't think of a post-season game where Jordan was ever in foul trouble. 

Kobe had no such advantages in the postseason.  He isn't nearly as aggressive as Jordan was defensively.  Probably because he couldn't get away with the ridiculous amount of hacking that Jordan did.  A case could be made that Kobe was screwed by the awful officiating in the Finals more than anybody else.

Jordan would have dominated in any era with or without all of the help he got from the officials.  He worked that hard and was that gifted and driven.  I don't see much of a debate as to who was better.  Kobe has probably 3-4 years at this level left so it's tough to compare the entire career.

I root against Kobe's team unless he's playing against the messiah, Cuban's team, or Los Suns.  But under the disgraceful biased officiating we see today that pollutes the game....Other than my beloved Celtics, Kobe and Tim Duncan are the only of today's NBA players I'd pay to watch.

[TerreHaute]

Break their game/skills down.

Niether one of them gaurded the other team's best player consistently, so they are both somewhat overrated defensively. Pippen and Artest are both better defenders on their own teams, so while they won numerous defensive "awards" it is mainly due to them benefiting from the hard work of others.

Offensively, their numbers are not even close. Jordan was superior in every way. He scored more, with higher shooting percentages. I am not sure about assist numbers, but I would guess they are at least comparable. If so, that makes Jordan look even better, as he was the number one option for his entire careeer and had very few competent guys to pass to early on.

This is Jordan in a landslide. The only real debate on the best player ever is between Jordan and Russell. It starts and stops there.

[chelsearules]

don't let marcus jordan near this thread

[Yakmanev]

As much as I dislike Jordan he would have never shot 20% in a deciding Game 7.

*EDIT* Nevermind I went back and read some stats earlier in the thread, maybe he did shoot pretty badly in some important games.

Still Kobe has had much more help with a legitimate big man and Gasol.