Author Topic: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan  (Read 9718 times)

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Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2010, 10:24:26 AM »

Offline bobdelt

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Jordan missed two years, so even if Kobe catches him in rings, he has that.

The other is his defense. Jordan won a lot of games by making a big defensive stop, or steal, that sealed the win. Kobe isn't doing that. Kobe is a great closer, but defensively Jordan sets himself apart.

Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2010, 06:50:55 PM »

Offline dlpin

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Yeah i am saying that the stars aligned just right for Michael Jordan, when you look back at it in retrospective alot went right for Michael Jordan that simply wont go right for others down the line.

He got sick against the Jazz in a must win sitiuation back then it would have been called very bad luck, but when your looking at it retrospectively that game added so much to his legacy, what if he wasnt sick that day? and they still won by the same margin?

What if he was injured after the 1992 season and didnt go with the Dreamteam?

What if he had stayed with Basketball and didnt have his stint with Baseball? would the Bulls win another championship with a un-motivated Jordan? what would that have done to his legacy?

And what about suffering a major injury? that didnt happen.

Am i taking anything away from Michael Jordan as a person or player? absolutly not, but during his years when he was building his legacy.. not a whole lot went wrong for Michael Jordan and that does make him lucky in my book.

edit: Before everyone goes off on me, luck does not take away from Skill or Ability, everyone is lucky to some extent is what i believe, Jordan just had more of it than most will have in a lifetime, if Pippen wasnt Born who knows what would have happend with Jordan's carrer, that dosnt make him any less of a Basketball player. Its a game of "What If"

But within my hypothesis, tell me this then.. would you believe the story of Michael Jordan's carrer if he had never exsisted? this is what interrested me during the conversation i had with my best friend, because i dont think i would.

First, the flu game is but a minor part of his legacy. He would still be viewed the same without that game. And who's to say that if healthy he wouldn't have a better, even more memorable game?

Second, the "luck" of being healthy is a bit irrelevant, isn't it? First, because that applies to literally everyone. And on top of luck, there is conditioning. Jordan was always in excellent condition, other players who had great peak years but declined fast, like shaq, weren't.

And I don't think the baseball thing would have taken away from his motivation. He might not have been as fresh in his later years, but he'd still be amazing.

Finally, Kobe had the same opportunity to make that fairy tale. The only problem is that he is not anywhere as good as Michael Jordan. Kobe's best is Jordan's average. Kobe would have had that same fairytale career if he had succeeded after pushing Shaq out of LA. He would have had the same fairytale career if he wasn't such an egomaniac that winning his way was more important than winning, period.

He crapped the bed in 04, was irrelevant from 05-07 because HE pushed people away, had a bad relationship with the media because of HIS own arrogance.

In terms of luck, Kobe has had a lot more luck than MJ ever had. Playing with Shaq from the start, with an established Phil Jackson, having his peak years as the league was devoid of other superstars (Jordan had to contend with Bird, Magic, etc.), key injuries to opponents that led to titles (Tim Duncan's knee in 99-00, Peja in 01-02), and reffing mistakes going his way (Blazers, Kings), and two finals against historic rivals.

Kobe could have had the same fairy tale career. Even more, if we consider that he played for the lakers. He just wasn't good enough to take advantage of that.

Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2010, 06:53:12 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Kobe is not that good. I wish he would retire or have a minor injury that derails his career.

Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2010, 07:02:22 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Couldn't have said it better myself, dlpin.

I was just thinking, "What if Kobe played nice and Shaq & Phil stayed in LA?"
Instead of Kobe just getting his 5th ring, he could've had 8. Maybe even more.

Jordan was driven by the bigger picture and winning, he would've never made the demands Kobe did. Kobe took his team out of contention by putting his ego above all else.

Another thing that sets them apart, Jordan made the players around him better - he literally took them to another level. For all of the things Kobe does, that's not one of them.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 07:23:16 PM by RJ87 »
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Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2010, 07:26:13 PM »

Offline LakerPete

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Couldn't have said it better myself.

I was just thinking, "What if Kobe played nice and Shaq & Phil stayed in LA?"
Instead of Kobe just getting his 5th ring, he could've had 8. Maybe even more.

Jordan was driven by the bigger picture and winning, he would've never made the demands Kobe did. Kobe took his team out of contention by putting his ego above all else.

Another think that sets them apart, Jordan made the players around him better - he literally took them to another level. For all of the things Kobe does, that's not one of them.

I think that you have an extremely inaccurate perception of what happened with the Shaq situation, as do a lot of fans around the league. I also think the fact that Shaq has left 4 other organizations on bad terms should speak volumes as well.

There was an incident in the 2004 preseason where Shaq blocked a shot into the stands, looked straight at Jerry Buss, and yelled, "NOW PAY ME MY F%&CKING MONEY!". They were negotiating an extension, and Shaq wanted 3 years/$90M, whereas I believe Buss was offering 5/$100. According to Dr. Buss, that's when he decided to trade Shaq after the season at that point and build around Kobe. They had signed Karl Malone & Gary Payton in order to make one last run with that core.

Kobe didn't run Shaq out of town. He never attempted to cultivate a relationship with the media, whereas Shaq is a gregarious personality who would consistently invite media members to the lavish parties that he would throw. He was fun, quotable, and accessible to the media...everything that Kobe is not. And that is why Shaq won the court of public opinion.

But look at the aftermath. Shaq left Miami, Phoenix, & Cleveland on very poor terms, took 3 coaches with him, and had previously done the exact same thing in Orlando. Every team he's been on has had discord in the locker room.

On the other hand, this current Laker team is as cohesive as you can imagine. That's the only way that you win games like last night, where nothing is going right for you.

So tell me...where did the problem lie?

Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2010, 07:31:52 PM »

Offline Celtics1990

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Jordan was undefeated in his six NBA finals appearances.  I believe Kobe is 5-2 as of last night.  When MJ got to the finals everyone and their grandmother knew he was going to win.
UBUNTU

Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2010, 07:41:13 PM »

Offline JSD

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If MJ never existed, the bar of greatness *still* wouldn't be Kobe.  He's not even in the top five.

When he's hot, though, Kobe can do some crazy things with the ball.  He's got more range than MJ, and makes more circus shots (probably because he takes more circus shots.)

Nailed it.

Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2010, 07:49:01 PM »

Offline LakerPete

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I've never expected Kobe to be appreciated for how good he is. He's a member of the most hated team in the league, and makes no effort to be personable. The same was true of Kareem.

I'll just continue to enjoy the titles as other downplay his abilities.

Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2010, 08:03:38 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Couldn't have said it better myself.

I was just thinking, "What if Kobe played nice and Shaq & Phil stayed in LA?"
Instead of Kobe just getting his 5th ring, he could've had 8. Maybe even more.

Jordan was driven by the bigger picture and winning, he would've never made the demands Kobe did. Kobe took his team out of contention by putting his ego above all else.

Another think that sets them apart, Jordan made the players around him better - he literally took them to another level. For all of the things Kobe does, that's not one of them.

I think that you have an extremely inaccurate perception of what happened with the Shaq situation, as do a lot of fans around the league. I also think the fact that Shaq has left 4 other organizations on bad terms should speak volumes as well.

There was an incident in the 2004 preseason where Shaq blocked a shot into the stands, looked straight at Jerry Buss, and yelled, "NOW PAY ME MY F%&CKING MONEY!". They were negotiating an extension, and Shaq wanted 3 years/$90M, whereas I believe Buss was offering 5/$100. According to Dr. Buss, that's when he decided to trade Shaq after the season at that point and build around Kobe. They had signed Karl Malone & Gary Payton in order to make one last run with that core.

Kobe didn't run Shaq out of town. He never attempted to cultivate a relationship with the media, whereas Shaq is a gregarious personality who would consistently invite media members to the lavish parties that he would throw. He was fun, quotable, and accessible to the media...everything that Kobe is not. And that is why Shaq won the court of public opinion.

But look at the aftermath. Shaq left Miami, Phoenix, & Cleveland on very poor terms, took 3 coaches with him, and had previously done the exact same thing in Orlando. Every team he's been on has had discord in the locker room.

On the other hand, this current Laker team is as cohesive as you can imagine. That's the only way that you win games like last night, where nothing is going right for you.

So tell me...where did the problem lie?

I sense some purple & gold tinted glasses here.
Last I heard, Shaq didn't leave Phoenix & Cleve on bad terms. It was a difference in playing style, moreso than locker room disputes. He could still return to Cleve, but they're a team in disarray right now for other reasons.

Phil Jackson's book paints a very negative picture of Kobe. Whereas Jackson says coaching Shaq was a great experience, he pretty much puts the blame on Bryant not wanting to be the sidekick for the decision to blow that team up.

Bryant may be a different guy now, but realistically, that team could've won a lot more if it had stayed together. It took the Lakers a few seasons to recover. And I will look at the aftermath, Shaq went to another team and helped them to a title in 2006, while co-existing with another star. And let's not pretend that Kobe publicly asking to be traded at the start of the 2007 season because the team wasn't winning didn't happen. And of course, Kobe quitting on his team in a playoff game a few years back against Phoenix to show them how much they needed him will FOREVER sour people against him. Jordan would NEVER do that.

As for the bad guy image Kobe has, that's all on him. His attempt to be charismatic comes off has forced and fake. It doesn't help that he always seems to use his daughters as props to give off the nice family man image. That ill-fated night in Colorado will always be a cloud over him, and fans will always think twice about who he is off court.

I've gotten away from the point though. Kobe, in my eyes and the eyes of many, will never be Jordan. He can try all he wants; change his jersey # from 8 to 24 to try and 1-up him, but Jordan was a transcendant talent. He made other players around him better; he always saw the big picture. That's the difference to me.
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Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2010, 08:05:29 PM »

Offline Mr October

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The greatest Lakers:

1. Magic
2. Kareem
3. Kobe

And all 3 are very close. Kobe is an amazing player.

Pau and Ron Artest were the 2 best Lakers in game 7 last night. Jordan was never 3rd best in an elimination game. Jordan's career continues to remain on a level to his own.

Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2010, 08:09:15 PM »

Offline bobdelt

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6 for 24.

Kobe is his own worst enemy = not on Jordan level.

Kobe wasn't the best player on all but 2 of his rings. (Gasol this year, and Shaq for 2).


Kobe really didnt deserve MVP this year.

Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2010, 08:16:57 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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6 for 24.

Kobe is his own worst enemy = not on Jordan level.

Kobe wasn't the best player on all but 2 of his rings. (Gasol this year, and Shaq for 2).


Kobe really didnt deserve MVP this year.

In all fairness, even though I hate Kobe, Jordan never played against any type of defense that comes anywhere near the celtics defense. It shut Kobe down in 2008 and almost beat him again this year, and I don't think Jordan would have faired much better. Jordan was great, but he never had another great team to compete against, he lucked out.

Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2010, 08:24:16 PM »

Offline LakerPete

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6 for 24.

Kobe is his own worst enemy = not on Jordan level.

Kobe wasn't the best player on all but 2 of his rings. (Gasol this year, and Shaq for 2).


Kobe really didnt deserve MVP this year.

In all fairness, even though I hate Kobe, Jordan never played against any type of defense that comes anywhere near the celtics defense. It shut Kobe down in 2008 and almost beat him again this year, and I don't think Jordan would have faired much better. Jordan was great, but he never had another great team to compete against, he lucked out.

In the last 3 Finals closeout games of Jordan's career, he went 5-19, 15-35, & 15-35. (after going 9-25 in Game 7 in the Eastern Conference Finals) But he was great in front of a camera and didn't play for a team that other fan bases hated from birth, so he's impervious to both criticism or accurate memory. 

And as you said, never played a team that approached the defensive capabilities of this Celtic squad. Go back and watch those games, and compare them to your team's defense. It isn't even close.

Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2010, 08:31:29 PM »

Offline Mr October

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6 for 24.

Kobe is his own worst enemy = not on Jordan level.

Kobe wasn't the best player on all but 2 of his rings. (Gasol this year, and Shaq for 2).


Kobe really didnt deserve MVP this year.

In all fairness, even though I hate Kobe, Jordan never played against any type of defense that comes anywhere near the celtics defense. It shut Kobe down in 2008 and almost beat him again this year, and I don't think Jordan would have faired much better. Jordan was great, but he never had another great team to compete against, he lucked out.

The Pistons then the Knicks played crazy good defense. Ewing, Barkley, Malone all had some very good teams.

Re: Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2010, 08:43:36 PM »

Offline RebusRankin

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Jordan was the best player on all six titles, Kobe for only the last two. Kobe may be top ten but he's not Jordan and clearly not top 5 (Jordan, Russell, Bird, Magic, Kareem). I'd put Duncan ahead too at a minimum.