Rotations and matchups

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Doc did good to finally see that if the starters ain't doing it, go to the bench. There are some matchups that, as we have seen in the recent past, don't work well for us. Ray covering Kobe, well, Ray proved he CAN cover Kobe, but he can't score also, he can do either. That is why TA should cover Kobe, with a try for Marquis also. TA played Kobe the only way you can....You have to stay glued to him when he doesn't have the ball..it kills the shot clock, and makes it harder for him to get a nice set shot, it actually makes it easier for the rest of our team. MD, when put on Kobe, should cover him hard and physical, if he can do it...I think he can, we have nothing to lose there.!

  Ray cannot cover Kobe AND be our shooter, it takes too much energy, you never give your best scorer the hardest D assingnment, it may feed the ego, but it won't put points on the board.

   PP and Ray really shouldn't be out there together, unless Kobe is on the bench.

  Perk....what to do with him, he really cannot cover Bynum, no one really can..It is a needed break to have him out, I hate to say it, but if he was healthier, we might not be able to beat them. That is Perks fault too, he cannot understand how to stay with his man, the only reason he did well on howard is that you stand in the paint, you won't lose howard, he comes to you (elbows and all), Bynum moves without the ball, and shows up when the ball does, a player needs to commit to staying with him, always..!

  So that goes with Gasol, KG is a bit of a wandering defender..sure, it makes you look like the aggressive "Net", until your guy is p=open and scores easily, which gasol does...a lot. Again, if KG would just stick him close and deny him easy inlets, more shot clock killing, more mistakes.

  Rondo and Nate are doing...great, have to give them more time, or Nate more time..but remember, we got a lot of space, without Bynum in there...a lot..! But these two will tire out the other team BIG TIME, Rondo should NEVER walk the ball up the floor, neither should Nate, you don't have to run right in for a layup, just make LA rush, get tired, fouls and mistakes, bad matchups....getting tired out there isn't always visible, but the results are..!


   BBD benefited a large amount from no Bynum also. BBd got all his game while bynum was out, remember that. Bynum was blocking all the shots after we got past Gasol..which is easy for bynum, it is always easy to block a shot as the next guy, the help, especially when they are both an active 7 footer.

  Perk must be hurt...if he isn't...well he is in major regression. He should watch Bynum tapes..!

[droopdog7]

Are you actually suggesting that we should start TA over Ray or PP?  I don't think so no.  Yes, TA covers kobe whenever he is in the game but for the most part, I like the rotations Doc has been using. 

[jdub1660]

Doc did good to finally see that if the starters ain't doing it, go to the bench. There are some matchups that, as we have seen in the recent past, don't work well for us. Ray covering Kobe, well, Ray proved he CAN cover Kobe, but he can't score also, he can do either. That is why TA should cover Kobe, with a try for Marquis also. TA played Kobe the only way you can....You have to stay glued to him when he doesn't have the ball..it kills the shot clock, and makes it harder for him to get a nice set shot, it actually makes it easier for the rest of our team. MD, when put on Kobe, should cover him hard and physical, if he can do it...I think he can, we have nothing to lose there.!

  Ray cannot cover Kobe AND be our shooter, it takes too much energy, you never give your best scorer the hardest D assingnment, it may feed the ego, but it won't put points on the board.

   PP and Ray really shouldn't be out there together, unless Kobe is on the bench.

  Perk....what to do with him, he really cannot cover Bynum, no one really can..It is a needed break to have him out, I hate to say it, but if he was healthier, we might not be able to beat them. That is Perks fault too, he cannot understand how to stay with his man, the only reason he did well on howard is that you stand in the paint, you won't lose howard, he comes to you (elbows and all), Bynum moves without the ball, and shows up when the ball does, a player needs to commit to staying with him, always..!

  So that goes with Gasol, KG is a bit of a wandering defender..sure, it makes you look like the aggressive "Net", until your guy is p=open and scores easily, which gasol does...a lot. Again, if KG would just stick him close and deny him easy inlets, more shot clock killing, more mistakes.

  Rondo and Nate are doing...great, have to give them more time, or Nate more time..but remember, we got a lot of space, without Bynum in there...a lot..! But these two will tire out the other team BIG TIME, Rondo should NEVER walk the ball up the floor, neither should Nate, you don't have to run right in for a layup, just make LA rush, get tired, fouls and mistakes, bad matchups....getting tired out there isn't always visible, but the results are..!


   BBD benefited a large amount from no Bynum also. BBd got all his game while bynum was out, remember that. Bynum was blocking all the shots after we got past Gasol..which is easy for bynum, it is always easy to block a shot as the next guy, the help, especially when they are both an active 7 footer.

  Perk must be hurt...if he isn't...well he is in major regression. He should watch Bynum tapes..!

Perk isn't hurt. He's holding back b/c one ticky tack foul can p--- him off and earn him a tech and a suspension. I hope we take this series up 3-2 at home, that way we have a game to play with in case of another loss b/c of poor officiating or cold shooters. Plus in a Game 7, Perk wouldn't care about another tech b/c the next game would be next season. Go all out and blow them out in LA in a game 7

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Are you actually suggesting that we should start TA over Ray or PP?  I don't think so no.  Yes, TA covers kobe whenever he is in the game but for the most part, I like the rotations Doc has been using. 

I know, the fixation of "The starter" stuck in your mind huh...Who cares who "Starts", all we care about is that Kobe doesn't score, gets tired, and in foul trouble..who wins, the guy who starts the most games...? Who has his ego stroked the most..?

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Doc did good to finally see that if the starters ain't doing it, go to the bench. There are some matchups that, as we have seen in the recent past, don't work well for us. Ray covering Kobe, well, Ray proved he CAN cover Kobe, but he can't score also, he can do either. That is why TA should cover Kobe, with a try for Marquis also. TA played Kobe the only way you can....You have to stay glued to him when he doesn't have the ball..it kills the shot clock, and makes it harder for him to get a nice set shot, it actually makes it easier for the rest of our team. MD, when put on Kobe, should cover him hard and physical, if he can do it...I think he can, we have nothing to lose there.!

  Ray cannot cover Kobe AND be our shooter, it takes too much energy, you never give your best scorer the hardest D assingnment, it may feed the ego, but it won't put points on the board.

   PP and Ray really shouldn't be out there together, unless Kobe is on the bench.

  Perk....what to do with him, he really cannot cover Bynum, no one really can..It is a needed break to have him out, I hate to say it, but if he was healthier, we might not be able to beat them. That is Perks fault too, he cannot understand how to stay with his man, the only reason he did well on howard is that you stand in the paint, you won't lose howard, he comes to you (elbows and all), Bynum moves without the ball, and shows up when the ball does, a player needs to commit to staying with him, always..!

  So that goes with Gasol, KG is a bit of a wandering defender..sure, it makes you look like the aggressive "Net", until your guy is p=open and scores easily, which gasol does...a lot. Again, if KG would just stick him close and deny him easy inlets, more shot clock killing, more mistakes.

  Rondo and Nate are doing...great, have to give them more time, or Nate more time..but remember, we got a lot of space, without Bynum in there...a lot..! But these two will tire out the other team BIG TIME, Rondo should NEVER walk the ball up the floor, neither should Nate, you don't have to run right in for a layup, just make LA rush, get tired, fouls and mistakes, bad matchups....getting tired out there isn't always visible, but the results are..!


   BBD benefited a large amount from no Bynum also. BBd got all his game while bynum was out, remember that. Bynum was blocking all the shots after we got past Gasol..which is easy for bynum, it is always easy to block a shot as the next guy, the help, especially when they are both an active 7 footer.

  Perk must be hurt...if he isn't...well he is in major regression. He should watch Bynum tapes..!

Perk isn't hurt. He's holding back b/c one ticky tack foul can [pee] him off and earn him a tech and a suspension. I hope we take this series up 3-2 at home, that way we have a game to play with in case of another loss b/c of poor officiating or cold shooters. Plus in a Game 7, Perk wouldn't care about another tech b/c the next game would be next season. Go all out and blow them out in LA in a game 7

Well, I want to win also...but holding back is odd..hold back his game because in playing it, if it doesn't go exactly as planned, he throws a nutty, like a mentally defecient child...how did he get to be the Tech king here, why isn't all players in that same realm, why not bynum..? Given that he "knows" what will happen, can't he just play the game, and live with the call...? What are we really dealing with here....?

[Mr October]

Who ever guards Kobe and Gasol need to be glued to them. Who ever guards Bynum, has to watch out for the offensive rebounding.

I think both teams match really well with each other. If Bynum is broken, the Celtics may end these last 2 games quickly.

[LB3533]

The thing I want to point out is...even if the starters aren't getting the job done, Doc can't rely on the bench to do what they did in that 4th quarter of Game 4.

Usually, 95 times out of 100, that lineup of one starter and reserves will produce a (-) plus/minus against the starters of most NBA teams.

I'm not saying we got lucky because our reserves busted their butts and deserve every kind of recognition. I'm just saying most of the time despite hard work, they won't produce on that high of a level against the talented players of most NBA starters.

Doc does need to ride it out with the starters.

I mean if our starters are not good enough to get the job done then they don't deserve to win the chip.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

The thing I want to point out is...even if the starters aren't getting the job done, Doc can't rely on the bench to do what they did in that 4th quarter of Game 4.

Usually, 95 times out of 100, that lineup of one starter and reserves will produce a (-) plus/minus against the starters of most NBA teams.

I'm not saying we got lucky because our reserves busted their butts and deserve every kind of recognition. I'm just saying most of the time despite hard work, they won't produce on that high of a level against the talented players of most NBA starters.

Doc does need to ride it out with the starters.

I mean if our starters are not good enough to get the job done then they don't deserve to win the chip.

Why even bother having a coach then...just leave the five to survive out there. Or maybe, it is about the rotation, the strategy, like a chess match...make the other team get into situations..useing you pieces, use your strengths against their weaknesses, each team is different, but here, we are only talking about the Lakers.....bench guys give others a rest, a different perpective, a chance to see what the guy is doing from the bench-view..what a player sees from the bench is different than from the floor, in just a few minutes on the bench, you can see a lot you'd miss from the court. As we have seen, at this level, no one can be "The man" everynight, so you keep trying things till you find the one that works..stay with the hot hands...! But hey, that is what you'd do, this is what I would do.

[droopdog7]

Are you actually suggesting that we should start TA over Ray or PP?  I don't think so no.  Yes, TA covers kobe whenever he is in the game but for the most part, I like the rotations Doc has been using. 

I know, the fixation of "The starter" stuck in your mind huh...Who cares who "Starts", all we care about is that Kobe doesn't score, gets tired, and in foul trouble..who wins, the guy who starts the most games...? Who has his ego stroked the most..?

No, I'm not obsessed with who starts. I just think that wanting to play TA over PP and Ray is pretty foolish. And your logic is incredibly flawed. You basically want TA to play 40+ minutes at the expense of our two best perimeter scorers. You are worried that Ray can't defend and play kobe yet you want you want TA playing instead. Makes no logical sense really.

[Bahku]

Are you actually suggesting that we should start TA over Ray or PP?  I don't think so no.  Yes, TA covers kobe whenever he is in the game but for the most part, I like the rotations Doc has been using.  

I know, the fixation of "The starter" stuck in your mind huh...Who cares who "Starts", all we care about is that Kobe doesn't score, gets tired, and in foul trouble..who wins, the guy who starts the most games...? Who has his ego stroked the most..?

No, I'm not obsessed with who starts. I just think that wanting to play TA over PP and Ray is pretty foolish. And your logic is incredibly flawed. You basically want TA to play 40+ minutes at the expense of our two best perimeter scorers. You are worried that Ray can't defend and play kobe yet you want you want TA playing instead. Makes no logical sense really.

Actually, "earning" a starting position on an NBA team, and one as experienced as the Celtics especially, is a big deal, and replacing one of our current starters with a bench player would be a slap in the face, (or at least a conceived one), of the player being replaced, whether the reason is justified or not.

The only way that would ever happen would be in the case of an injury. I'm not saying I have a problem with it, but the way the system works in the NBA, and again, on established "role" teams like the C's, it's just not going to happen ... too many egos and preconceived notions of importance rankings that would inevitably be messed with, and a conservative coach like Doc is not going to twiddle with that established chemistry that took so long to solidify.

Interesting idea, and I love the pressure that TA is putting on Kobe ... but the only way it happens, (realistically), is by early substitutions or foul trouble, not by changing the starting line-up.

[guava_wrench]

Reality check. The bench has yet to show that they can dominate in every game. Let's not get carried away by one great performance.

TA, Nate, Ray, Baby, Sheed -- did you notice, 4 of the 5 can shoot from outside? TA is the only non-shooter.

Rondo, TA, Pierce, KG, Perk -- only 2 of 5 can shoot from outside. And only 1 can shoot from 3.

TA is much better off playing with Nate and Sheed than with Rondo and Perk.

[Celtics18]

Reality check. The bench has yet to show that they can dominate in every game. Let's not get carried away by one great performance.

TA, Nate, Ray, Baby, Sheed -- did you notice, 4 of the 5 can shoot from outside? TA is the only non-shooter.

Rondo, TA, Pierce, KG, Perk -- only 2 of 5 can shoot from outside. And only 1 can shoot from 3.

TA is much better off playing with Nate and Sheed than with Rondo and Perk.

 How can you say that only 2 of the 5 starters are perimeter shooters and only 1 can shoot from three?  Are you saying that KG can't hit jump shots or that Pierce can't shoot from beyond the arc?  That's just ridiculous.

You can certainly play TA with Rondo, but you're partially right.  Having 'Sheed in the game with Tony and either of the two perimeter starters is needed.  You've got to find ways to have shooters on the floor when TA's in there.

[FallGuy]

Reality check. The bench has yet to show that they can dominate in every game. Let's not get carried away by one great performance.

TA, Nate, Ray, Baby, Sheed -- did you notice, 4 of the 5 can shoot from outside? TA is the only non-shooter.

Rondo, TA, Pierce, KG, Perk -- only 2 of 5 can shoot from outside. And only 1 can shoot from 3.

TA is much better off playing with Nate and Sheed than with Rondo and Perk.

 How can you say that only 2 of the 5 starters are perimeter shooters and only 1 can shoot from three?  Are you saying that KG can't hit jump shots or that Pierce can't shoot from beyond the arc?  That's just ridiculous.

You can certainly play TA with Rondo, but you're partially right.  Having 'Sheed in the game with Tony and either of the two perimeter starters is needed.  You've got to find ways to have shooters on the floor when TA's in there.

I think you misread that post. He said 2/5 starters are perimeter shooters. Pierce and KG. And only one shoots the three ball: Pierce.

Rondo and TA is a problem together even with Rasheed. D can sag off of one or both. They can do it for brief stretches but it's hardly ideal.

[guava_wrench]

Reality check. The bench has yet to show that they can dominate in every game. Let's not get carried away by one great performance.

TA, Nate, Ray, Baby, Sheed -- did you notice, 4 of the 5 can shoot from outside? TA is the only non-shooter.

Rondo, TA, Pierce, KG, Perk -- only 2 of 5 can shoot from outside. And only 1 can shoot from 3.

TA is much better off playing with Nate and Sheed than with Rondo and Perk.

 How can you say that only 2 of the 5 starters are perimeter shooters and only 1 can shoot from three?  Are you saying that KG can't hit jump shots or that Pierce can't shoot from beyond the arc?  That's just ridiculous.

You can certainly play TA with Rondo, but you're partially right.  Having 'Sheed in the game with Tony and either of the two perimeter starters is needed.  You've got to find ways to have shooters on the floor when TA's in there.

Look at the lineups I posted. I have posted the lineup we had during our fourth quarter run and the potential starting lineup with TA, not what you are attributing to me.

For the bench lineup, you could also switch Pierce for one of them for a few minutes and still have plenty of perimeter shooting.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Are you actually suggesting that we should start TA over Ray or PP?  I don't think so no.  Yes, TA covers kobe whenever he is in the game but for the most part, I like the rotations Doc has been using.  

What doesn't make sense is that you don't think about stopping their #1 scorer, like we did vs miami and cleve, with TA, kobe is better than both of them, he makes it ALL happen, you cover him, pp ray get in foul trouble, tired and have proved they can't do both...haven't you seen that ALL playoffs..? THAT is a fact. Ray and pp aren't 24-25 anymore, and it makes a diff, you stop kobe, the lakers lose.  that is it. Even wehen he doesn't score, you have to make possesions difficult for him, he pulls the D to him, and then he passes out of it, making our team look foolish, that is when we get confused, mad at each other, and out of our game. Pure basketball is a chess matchup, it isn't about ego and starters, it is about matchups, who can cover who...like the other year when coach brown shut down ray allen...it killed us...but you don't have to like my opinion, it is just my 2 cents...but TA's D has saved us this whole playoffs, so...in my opinion, that is the way to go, put anyone around him, but TA on kobe works, watch him off the ball, he is in kobe's shirt..that is the only way to D that kid.....he is the best player in the league, best shooter..we need Ray to be free, with a less diff D assignment.

I know, the fixation of "The starter" stuck in your mind huh...Who cares who "Starts", all we care about is that Kobe doesn't score, gets tired, and in foul trouble..who wins, the guy who starts the most games...? Who has his ego stroked the most..?

No, I'm not obsessed with who starts. I just think that wanting to play TA over PP and Ray is pretty foolish. And your logic is incredibly flawed. You basically want TA to play 40+ minutes at the expense of our two best perimeter scorers. You are worried that Ray can't defend and play kobe yet you want you want TA playing instead. Makes no logical sense really.

What doesn't make sense is that you don't think about stopping their #1 scorer, like we did vs miami and cleve, with TA, kobe is better than both of them, he makes it ALL happen, you cover him, pp ray get in foul trouble, tired and have proved they can't do both...haven't you seen that ALL playoffs..? THAT is a fact. Ray and pp aren't 24-25 anymore, and it makes a diff, you stop kobe, the lakers lose.  that is it. Even wehen he doesn't score, you have to make possesions difficult for him, he pulls the D to him, and then he passes out of it, making our team look foolish, that is when we get confused, mad at each other, and out of our game. Pure basketball is a chess matchup, it isn't about ego and starters, it is about matchups, who can cover who...like the other year when coach brown shut down ray allen...it killed us...but you don't have to like my opinion, it is just my 2 cents...but TA's D has saved us this whole playoffs, so...in my opinion, that is the way to go, put anyone around him, but TA on kobe works, watch him off the ball, he is in kobe's shirt..that is the only way to D that kid.....he is the best player in the league, best shooter..we need Ray to be free, with a less diff D assignment.