C's should play more selfishly?

[ballin]

Sometimes, it really seems as though the C's play better offense when the big 3 or Rondo play more "selfishly". I put that word in parentheses because of the many negative connotations that go along with it. But is it always a bad thing? In the case of our team, I'm not so sure.

The Celtics have always had a high number of turnovers, and this problem is exacerbated when we overpass. When that happens, it results in situations like KG passing to a cutting Rondo when Kg already has an open layup. Or people passing the ball around the perimeter for no particular reason and to no particular end, at which point the offense doesn't even get started until there are only 10 seconds left on the shot clock.

Sometimes, it seems like the more we pass the less we take it to the hoop and the less points we score in the paint. We HAVE to start taking advantage of certain matchups, and that means being selfish in a way.

-When Paul Pierce is being guarded by Luke Walton, Paul Pierce SHOULD NOT PASS. This situation HAS to result in either a layup, foul, or one of those Pierce step-back jumpers.

-When Rondo is being guarded by Fisher, there is NO reason for Rondo not to take him off the dribble every single time. Now, once Rondo beats him off the dribble he should continue to look for the open man (somebody will have to move out of position to contest his layup) but again, there's no reason why the offense shouldn't start every single time with a Rondo drive.

-KG needs to realize when he has to take a shot. I'm glad he realizes it's not all about "KG vs. Pau" but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be aggressive. KG has to put his head down and go to the hoop a few times, and maybe draw some fouls on Pau to make him sit. Why shouldn't he, Pau is doing it to him!

Those are just a couple of examples. But my point is we need certain players be selfish when they feel they have an advantage. If we can't make the Lakers pay for trotting out the likes of Derek Fisher, Vujacic, Walton, etc., then we're screwed.

[ballin]

Oh, and to bolster my point:

Look at Nate Robinson before he came here and now after he came here.

Old Robinson: Selfish shot-jacker? Yes, but he was a hell of a scorer.

Celtics Robinson: Looks lost at times. Feels like he has to pass the ball around a lot because that's what everybody else on this team does. As a result, he's become less potent offensively and one could even say lost some confidence. What he seems unable to realize is that we, as a team, would be best served by him playing like his old self, pull-up 3's on fast breaks included.

[Fafnir]

No the Celtics do not have the individual talents to overwhelm a team as good as the Lakers through isolation and other "selfish" plays.

I understand a lot of your point is that our players should take their shots when they get them, but the ball has to move. Without ball movement the Celtics offense wil not be effective enough to win 4 games.

[wiley]

The Celtics are at their best when the ball is moving all over the place......which means they're also moving themselves all over the place and getting open....
Turnovers result when they keep passing despite nobody moving....and that's when you find yourself wishing they would shoot it more....when they pass to un-open teammates and the ball gets knocked away or stolen outright.....

So, if they're not moving and getting open, by all means take the first open shot or be extra careful with passes....but when everything's flowing, people are moving, then play Celtics basketball and deflate the other team with exquisite passing ability......

[birdwatcher]

I felt the main reason we lost is we didn't move the ball around enough and got caught up playing way too much one on one.

[wiley]

I felt the main reason we lost is we didn't move the ball around enough and got caught up playing way too much one on one.

Agree, we were stagnant.  I think we we were low energy on offense as well as defense, meaning we weren't really getting open.....I'm not sure about this.....we might have been ball hogging as well......but it didn't look like togetherness on offense....

[thirstyboots18]

Agree, Wiley...one of my tennis pros used to call them "happy dancing feet"  ha ha ha.  Without "happy dancing feet" you are not in ready positon to quickly change direction and protect your man, or play the ball...Sometimes it seems that Ray is the only man planning to be involved in the play while everyone else is satisfied to watch the play unfold.  Ray moves very, very well without the ball.

[ballin]

But don't you guys remember 2008, when it seemed like PP, Ray, and KG would go off on different nights and everyone would just feed them the ball? It seemed like a million times that season in the post-game interview after a win somebody would say "we were just feeding the hot hand".

Of course the first response to this point will be "but this isn't 2008. the big 3 can't do now what they could back then". And my response to that is look what KG did to Jamison and what Paul Pierce did against Orlando. And Ray had some pretty efficient games against Miami. And Rondo, wow, when the kid wants to he takes over. So yeah, the ability is there. The desire to take over games just seems to be lacking.

Apparently everybody on here disagrees with the point I'm making, but I still firmly believe we're a better team when we don't play like a rec team: aka "pass the ball 3 times before anyone takes a shot!"

[thirstyboots18]

ahhh, now I see your point...but in order to find "who" has the hot hand, everyone has to be Moving!  Playing team ball doen not mean not going to the hot hand, it means that everyone has to be moving and contributing, whether it is passing, shooting, or getting the opponents out of position to stop your plays.  When someone gets hot, you can ride him, but without movement no one is going to get hot.  Make the other team work.  Don't give them easy defensive assignments or easy offensive ones, either.   This is the finals.  This is not the time to conserve your energy. 

[wiley]

ahhh, now I see your point...but in order to find "who" has the hot hand, everyone has to be Moving!  Playing team ball doen not mean not going to the hot hand, it means that everyone has to be moving and contributing, whether it is passing, shooting, or getting the opponents out of position to stop your plays.  When someone gets hot, you can ride him, but without movement no one is going to get hot.  Make the other team work.  Don't give them easy defensive assignments or easy offensive ones, either.   This is the finals.  This is not the time to conserve your energy. 

Well said, Thirsty....

And not only that, but you can not set out with a game plan of having one of your stars go off....(you were basically saying this as well)....having a player "go off" just happens at times, and when it does it's a great thing to watch....but it never stems from the overall game plan, unless your offensive plan is to hand the ball to Jordan or Lebron and get out of the way...and .even they could/can rarely do it over the course of a entire game...Well, Jordan maybe, and Kobe now and then....Celtics are a very different animal....

[LB3533]

You guys know that we have the playoff record for most consecutive games played with "a different player" leading the team in scoring?

That only works, i.e. translates into wins if you play high level defense.

Generally, you have your main scorers leading the way in that category.

Rarely do you ever have or need or want, bench players to lead your team in scoring for the sake of being "an unselfish team".

I think for Game 1 if Ray hadn't gotten into foul trouble he would have gotten into a better offensive rhythm and we would not have shot 1-10 on 3's.

Had we made 3 more three's it would have been a 3 point loss....a much closer game than it appeared in actuality.

[nickagneta]

This flies in the face of everything the Celtics do and Doc actually said in interviews since the loss that the reason the Celtics offense was bad was because they weren't trusting each other, weren't making the extra pass and where playing too much one on one ball.

Sorry ballin, you are just completely and utterly wrong here. The Celtics are at their best when their assist to FGM ratio is very high which means the ball is moving ahead of the defense and the Celtics are finding the best shot available.

The Lakers have a good defense and without a superduperstar caliber offensive presence, the Celtics won't beat that defense going one on one.

[LB3533]

This flies in the face of everything the Celtics do and Doc actually said in interviews since the loss that the reason the Celtics offense was bad was because they weren't trusting each other, weren't making the extra pass and where playing too much one on one ball.

Sorry ballin, you are just completely and utterly wrong here. The Celtics are at their best when their assist to FGM ratio is very high which means the ball is moving ahead of the defense and the Celtics are finding the best shot available.

The Lakers have a good defense and without a superduperstar caliber offensive presence, the Celtics won't beat that defense going one on one.

Yea, I am not buying we did not play team ball in Game 1.

I am not buying we played 1 on 1 and didn't trust each other.

A Celtic would have had 20+ FGA if we weren't playing team ball. Only one player had more than 15 shot attempts and that was KG, who said he wasn't aggressive in Game 1.

If there was a sign that there was a player who was trying to play "hero ball" it would show up in the turnovers. Not one Celtic approached 5 turnovers in Game 1.

Only one Celtic had more than 2....Pierce who had 3.

If Pierce was playing "hero ball"...I would just go ahead and fire the offensive assistant coach right now.


We had 29 FGM......29.

We had 19 Assists on 29 FGM.


ECF: 20.2 assists on 32.7 FGM

ECS: 23 assists on 37.2 FGM

Looks to me we were playing team ball on offense.

The problem was defensive rebounding. I believe the Lakers had 16 second chance points to the Celtics 0. The Lakers had 12 offensive rebounds to the Celtics 8.

Lakers also had 48 points in the paint to the C's 30.

Well had we done our jobs on the glass you can theoretically take off 16 second chance points and possibly 16 points from the Laker's paint points.

32 to 30 isn't that much of an advantage.

Back to the C's offense.

Total Team FGA for Game 1: 67

Last 2 series Team FGA per game: 76.5

Where did those 9.5 FGA go to?

[LB3533]

Oh and by the way the Lakers had only 18 assists on 37 made baskets.

One of their players had 22 shot attempts. Gee, I wonder who?

Their next 2 "best" players put up 24 shots combined.

I wonder if they were playing team ball or were they just fortunate to win the game?

[ballin]

Oh and by the way the Lakers had only 18 assists on 37 made baskets.

One of their players had 22 shot attempts. Gee, I wonder who?

Their next 2 "best" players put up 24 shots combined.

I wonder if they were playing team ball or were they just fortunate to win the game?

That's the real irony here. You criticize the Lakers for having selfish players yet their offense outplayed ours. Is it so unfathomable to you that it's possible selfish offenses can occasionally be more efficient?