How can a game be called evenly but completely effect the outcome of a game?

[Rashi]

I didn't like the officiating for either sides. All the whistle blowing made the game slow and a bit boring to watch.

This is the finals...and the refs could seriously ignore the minor type of fouls.

The only foul I had a problem with was when Ray picked up his 5th. Mayb I wasn't paying attention properly, but I rlly didn't see a foul there.

[connerhenry43]

the artest/pierce scrum (the play where both players got a double technical even though pierce did nothing but get thrown to the ground) was a calculated play by Phil Jackson. This happened 30 seconds into the game for a reason.  He knew that would lead to the game being called super tight, which would hurt the celtics. no coach has manipulated refs the way jackson does and this was an absolutely planned action. don't get me wrong, he did not want a brawl, he wanted a little skirmish, which would get the refs on red alert.

it worked, good for them. i prefer to let players play, and refs ref, but this has been his Modus Operandi for many years and his teams usually get the game reffed the way he wants. this play set the tone for the night.

refs did not cost the celts the game but the lakers got the benefit of calls a lot last night. no change there, they have gotten a lot of calls since i was a kid.

[Jaycelt]

Two things,

 #1- You can't say things like....

"But, if the officials call the series the exact same way the game was called for the first 30 minutes or so, the Lakers will end this in 4 or 5 games. It will be good by the book officiating. It will be called evenly on both sides. And, it will definitely play to the Lakers advantage." 

...and then contend that your not blaming the loss on the officiating.  You most certainly are.  Coaches have always said players have to adjust to the officiating.  Your arguement is that the Celtics can not adjust.  I disagree.  We've won games that were closely called before.  Last night we had people who just never showed up and it showed in the hustle and over all play.  That's what cost us the game. Ray's foul trouble didn't help, but that should have been expected when we have Ray guarding Kobe just like Pierce found himself in early foul trouble against LeBron.  We have to find ways to over come that.

#2-"Paul put up numbers but only kept the Celtics in the game and never did anything to help them win the game."

 Really?  Getting more rebounds than your center and pf put together isn't helping your team win?  Putting both Artest and Bryant on the bench in foul trouble in the first half isn't doing anything to help your team win?  Playing better defense on Bryant than your designated wing defender isn't helping your team win?  Getting to the line more than anyone on either team, including Bryant, and then making your free throws counts for nothing?  Doing a better job blocking out Gashol than KG doesn't make a difference?  Saving, by my count, three different Celtics possessions by hustle plays when no one else on the team could be bothered to even try doesn't count for anything?
Face it Nick, if Rondo had played a similar game you'd be singing his praises right now and talking about how everyone else dogged it. 
 
 

[kozlodoev]

The same argument can be made in reverse for the 2008 finals: the refs handed us the title, because they allowed a level of physical contact that the Lakers didn't like and weren't accustomed to.

Officials are what they are. As long as they make the same type of calls on both ends of the floor, we just have to learn how to live with it. You can't come unprepared for this, and expect to be the champion.

[Eja117]

Post/thread of year nominee.

I see what you're saying nick. I think some people skipped the first two sentences where you said ALMOST

But I have to agree with kozlodoev right above me.

Also I disagree with you in the sense that you used the word "outcome".  To me that means who won and lost and I'm just not seeing that in this game. Officiating was a minor factor in the game.

But I also totally agree with you that if they use the new style of officiating designed to give more power to guards like D Wade at the expense of the defender it can become a factor....especially if the Celts don't adjust.

I've been amazed at the high quality of reffing most of the playoffs. There were tons of times I thought something was bogus and in the replay saw I was wrong.

But to me the epitome of the game was I think towards the end of the 2nd quarter where I think Kobe was on the bench in fol trouble, so J Farmar comes in, hits two layups and then steal the ball from Rondo when Rondo's not looking to go up by about 9. That has nothing to do with officiating.

To me i just hate seeing the worst refs reffing the biggest games. I don't understand why Joey Crawford is an NBA ref, but there he is.

I like that ref that threw a ball at a guy, but for the wrong reasons.

Until Stern stops elevating the refs above the players, coaches, fans, and media this will continue.

[nickagneta]

Two things,

 #1- You can't say things like....

"But, if the officials call the series the exact same way the game was called for the first 30 minutes or so, the Lakers will end this in 4 or 5 games. It will be good by the book officiating. It will be called evenly on both sides. And, it will definitely play to the Lakers advantage." 

...and then contend that your not blaming the loss on the officiating.  You most certainly are. 

Actually, I can say things like that and I am not blaming the refs. I said straight from the start that:

We lost tonight because of a lack of offense and lack of defense and a lack of effort and a lack of focus. let me make that clear from the start. The Celtics players lost this game and the Lakers players won it.

Perhaps you missed that part. In saying that I completely absolved the refs for any responsibility of last night's loss and placed the blame squarely where it belonged, at the feet of the players on both teams.

But my point is, a point a lot of people, like yourself, seem to be missing here is that a game can be a well called, evenly called, by the book officiated game and still favor a team to win. Boston's system works better when the rules of the game are not enforced as stringently as they can be. It works better when referees see incidental contact and not fouls. If the games will all be called extremely tight and "by the book" that type of officiated game favors the Lakers and it is my belief if that happens it will be tough for the Celtics to win.. Can the Celtics adjust? Sure. Can they adjust in time to win four games before they lose three more, we will see.

#2-"Paul put up numbers but only kept the Celtics in the game and never did anything to help them win the game."

 Really?  Getting more rebounds than your center and pf put together isn't helping your team win?  Putting both Artest and Bryant on the bench in foul trouble in the first half isn't doing anything to help your team win?  Playing better defense on Bryant than your designated wing defender isn't helping your team win?  Getting to the line more than anyone on either team, including Bryant, and then making your free throws counts for nothing?  Doing a better job blocking out Gashol than KG doesn't make a difference?  Saving, by my count, three different Celtics possessions by hustle plays when no one else on the team could be bothered to even try doesn't count for anything?
Face it Nick, if Rondo had played a similar game you'd be singing his praises right now and talking about how everyone else dogged it. 

Last part first, the next time during a Celtic loss that I blame everyone for the loss while singing the praises of Rondo will be my first so you don't know what you are talking about there.

I didn't mean to insult your hero Paul Pierce but that's not what I was doing. I was merely stating that when he finally showed up big time, in the fourth quarter, the Celtics were already losing by 20 points and as good a 4th quarter as he had all he did was keep the Celtics in the game, he didn't do anything to help them win it at that point.

Pierce had 24 points and 9 rebounds. But 13 of those points and 4 of those rebounds came after the Celtics were already down by 20 with only 11 minutes left in the game. Up until that point Pierce played as lousy as every other Celtic, every Celtic. looking at a couple of hustle plays and his final stats in a vacuum is wonderful stuff, but it doesn't really give you the whole picture.

Given that he put up the majority of his good stats in the fourth quarter when his team was already losing big, it can actually be argued that he got his stats in garbage time and so didn't really do anything to help his team win. Which is all I am saying.

[LakerPete]

I generally avoid these type of discussions, but a couple of facts from the Laker perspective.

1) In each of the 4 Laker losses in the playoffs, their opponent has shot at least 19 more free throws.

2) The Lakers have shot 99 fewer free throws than their opponents in the playoffs, despite being +206 in the regular season (6th place). This is far and away the biggest discrepancy in the playoffs, with the next closest team being Miami with a -35.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/differential/sort/freeThrowsAttemptedDifference

Last night's game was called far too closely, but it was even, in my opinion.

[PAOBoston]

for the most part i thought the game was called evenly.but where i do have a problem is the fact the refs were calling alot of ticky tack fouls. this is the playoffs for ****. let them play rough a little! if this style continues, this favors the lakers and doesnt allow the c's to play their "game."

[RockinRyA]

I generally avoid these type of discussions, but a couple of facts from the Laker perspective.

1) In each of the 4 Laker losses in the playoffs, their opponent has shot at least 19 more free throws.

2) The Lakers have shot 99 fewer free throws than their opponents in the playoffs, despite being +206 in the regular season (6th place). This is far and away the biggest discrepancy in the playoffs, with the next closest team being Miami with a -35.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/differential/sort/freeThrowsAttemptedDifference

Last night's game was called far too closely, but it was even, in my opinion.

well, that was the whole point of the original post. it was even but too tight. and that benefits the fakers more

[LakerPete]

I generally avoid these type of discussions, but a couple of facts from the Laker perspective.

1) In each of the 4 Laker losses in the playoffs, their opponent has shot at least 19 more free throws.

2) The Lakers have shot 99 fewer free throws than their opponents in the playoffs, despite being +206 in the regular season (6th place). This is far and away the biggest discrepancy in the playoffs, with the next closest team being Miami with a -35.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/differential/sort/freeThrowsAttemptedDifference

Last night's game was called far too closely, but it was even, in my opinion.

well, that was the whole point of the original post. it was even but too tight. and that benefits the fakers more

I'm not sure how that benefits the Lakers more. The Lakers want to play physical, beat-you-up basketball, just as the Celtics do.

[LB3533]

nick, when Pierce was scoring earlier in the 1st it was a deficit of 5. When Pierce started scoring late in the 4th quarter, the deficit went down back to as close as 11.

I think it shows that Pierce needs the ball way more than Rondo needs the ball.

And history shows that's how we won it all last time against the Lakers.

[nickagneta]

nick, when Pierce was scoring earlier in the 1st it was a deficit of 5. When Pierce started scoring late in the 4th quarter, the deficit went down back to as close as 11.

I think it shows that Pierce needs the ball way more than Rondo needs the ball.

And history shows that's how we won it all last time against the Lakers.

So what's your point? Pierce needs to score in this series for the Celtics to win. I never said otherwise. I never argued that he needs the ball less than Rondo. So, again, what's your point.

I love Paul Pierce. He just didn't do anything to help this team win, all he did was help keep the game close after it got out of hand because everybody had played so poorly.

[Rondo_is_better]

To answer the question posed in the thread title: when Ray Allen doesn't get to play.

I'm guessing that didn't help.

But still, we got completely owned on the glass -- that was the real difference. Wayyyy too many second shots. Also every loose ball went to the Lakers. They were quicker to the floor and hungrier. That can't happen.

[Celtics18]

Mr. Agneta,

You make a good point about how the style of refereeing can influence the game.

However, I want to mention another angle to looking at this debate.  I feel that the play of the teams involved influences the way the game is officiated more than the other way around.

If you look at last night's game, the Celtics did not come out playing that aggresive, disruptive defense that we've grown accustomed to seeing over this post-season.  The Lakers were getting to their spots easily, and making the Cs defense react to what they were doing. Instead of forcing the issue, the defense spent alot of time trying to make desperation plays to save buckets.  Those desperation plays will get you in trouble, and you'll pick up more of what look like cheap or ticky tack fouls.

On the other hand, I feel like when our team has been playing that nasty D, getting on people when they cross half court, denying people spots, fighting through picks, switching, helping, jumping passing lanes, getting deflections, steals, and generally forcing the issue defensively, then we seem to get much more generous non-whistles.

The referees reward gritty, tough Celtics D, as they should.  Unfortunately, that's not what we saw in game one of the finals.  

[tenn_smoothie]

By calling the game extra tight with a lot of non shooting fouls and concentrating some of those calls on certain players, the refs completely took the Celtics out of their game. If Ray Allen is going to be sitting down riding pine in foul trouble for over 9 minutes of the third and first quarters and Tony Allen has to play extended minutes with the starting unit, the Celtics are at a clear disadvantage.

If then Tony Allen is called for fast fouls and is put in foul trouble quickly due to more extremely ticky tack fouls, the Celtics are now reaching into their 10th and 11th men on the depth chart to try to win playoff games.

Once players see that the game is going to be called a certain way, the Celtics then have to back off their aggressive contact driven defensive style and that plays into the hands of the Lakers length because if the Celtics can't be physical so that they can move the Lakers off their spots for fear of getting fouls, the Lakers athleticism and length in the post will start to show itself.

That is pretty much what happened for long periods of the most important parts of this game.

the Celtics just got outplayed, plain and simple. KG and Rondo look hurt. Ray due to the above mentioned foul trouble and way the game was called never got into any type of rhythm. Paul put up numbers but only kept the Celtics in the game and never did anything to help them win the game. And the bench played 69 total minutes and except for about 12 good minutes from Rasheed, was putrid.

But, if the officials call the series the exact same way the game was called for the first 30 minutes or so, the Lakers will end this in 4 or 5 games. It will be good by the book officiating. It will be called evenly on both sides. And, it will definitely play to the Lakers advantage.

you stole my thunder mr. nick - your words are my thoughts exactly - the celtics weren't intimidated by the lakers, they were intimidated by the threat of fouling out and of receiving double-techs and  flagrant fouls because the modern nba official is not man enough to control a game, so he relies on his whistle and the cowardly double-tech in order to subdue emotions and keep tempers in check. as many have mentioned before, if kevin mchale put a stop to the lakers fast break today the way he did in 1984, he would be suspended for the series.


all of this combines to wreak havoc on the celtics physical, aggressive nature and caters to the finesse style of the lakers.


yeah, i suppose the celts did get flat outplayed last night, but i think the threat of that quick whistle did a number on their normal game mindset way before tipoff. they entered the game wary of the officials and then played timidly because of it.

and i blame most of this fiasco on one david stern - who wants a sterile game played by nice guys like dwight and lebron and kobe, so he can crow about all the upstanding citizens in his clean-shaven league.


to hell with it all Celts - come out fighting sunday night and let the chips - and laker teeth - fall where they may !!