If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...

[GreenFaith1819]

Another title - especially if he wins final MVP, I'd say he's 5th or 6th with McHale. I think McHale's stock goes down a bit since we've had an outbreak of GREAT PFs in the league. McHale changed the mold, but guys like Duncan, KG, Malone, maybe Barkley, are all clearly better. Additionally I have to factor in the shorter peak value, and really only being the best player on the team for maybe one year. Cooz gets bonus points for basically being the only great PG (until Rondo gets there.) McHale is the starting PF on the all time team, so he gets bonus points too.

Russell, Bird, Havs, Cooz, McHale would be my top 5 and starting 5.

Cowens - another guy with a short career, and minus points for flaking out and driving a cab.

Sam Jones - just don't know him.
Parish - minus points for playing on so many other teams.

Net of it is, Pierce ends up with two titles, 15 years as the best player / leader of the Celtics, high rankings on all the all time lists for the C's, two finals MVPs. I'd move him to fourth. Bird and Russel might be top 5 all time players in the NBA and Haveliceck is basically a Paul Pierce clone, just better across the board.

First of all, Duncan is really a Center, and has been for most of his career. No way would I put Malone or Barkley ahead of McHale.Had he not played with Bird and Parrish, McHales numbers would have been unbelievable.

I vividly remember the Cowens, Jo Jo White, Hondo teams.

Pierce will always be outside of the top group, no matter how his career finishes. I certainly appreciate his loyalty to the organization.

My top 5 Celtics

Russell
Bird
Hondo
Cousey
Cowens

Next group

McHale
Parrish
Sam Jones
Tommy Heinson
Paul Pierce

Its hard to ignore all that Tommy did for the organization. He was a great player and great coach. Now he is the biggest homer in the NBA, and justifiably so. He reveres the greatest organization in the History of Professional Sports not names the Yankees.

Great List - I'd probably place Paul Pierce in that 2nd group - right now.

Win another title VS LA - and he moves up in the 2nd group - but not into the 1st - yet. Maybe to 8th spot once we get Banner 18 in a few weeks?

For me, I have to take into consideration the Intangibles with Paul - The Lean Years, the pressure to win, no matter who he had around him; the stabbing attack, and how he came back from that...him and Toine taking Boston to the brink in 2001-02...

Out of maybe Any Celtic Star, he has (to me) been the Most Long-Suffering.

[BKDomer]

Interesting topic.  Let me preface my perspective with a couple things.  First, I go back to the 80's, so it is difficult to comment on players before then, but I have uncles who are huge Celtics fans and are big part of me being a fan, so I have some insight; and second, I am a huge fan of Paul's, I just love how he plays the game, particularly the past 5 yrs or so - Celtics bias aside, I think its fair to say he is the most under-appreciated "star" of his generation.  Having said that...

1.  Russell and Bird are untouchable.  There isn't even an argument there.  The poster who prefaced a Pierce over Bird argument b/c Bird lost to the Lakers twice is laughable.  I know Tommy and Bob Ryan have people fired up with "best scorer in Celtics history," but even if he is (and off the top of my head I bet Bird has 3 seasons averaging more than Pierce ever did), Pierce is not better than Bird.  Thats not a knock on Pierce, I love the guy, but Bird is top-5 NBA all-time.  End of story. 

2.  After that, it gets complicated.  The prevailing thought I had after game 6 of the ECF was "What would Paul's career look like if he had real teammates from 1999-2007?"  Because the guy comes through.  That is what makes the comparison to the rest of the Celtics - all of whom played on truly GREAT TEAMS - so difficult.  Not one guy in the conversation of great Celtics had to endure the garbage that Pierce did in his time (his perseverance and the fact that he remained a Celtic is admirable).  Having never seen him play, I would probably concede that Hondo was better than Pierce, but after that I'm not sure.  Its never fair to simply compare rings; plenty of great players never won one.  Plug Pierce into Bird's role in 1979 and how does his career unfold with those squads?  Here's one thing we know about Paul - when the opportunity is there he comes through as well as anyone:

- 2002, first round, game 5:  46, 4, 6 vs Philly in his first playoff series back when they were best of 5
- 2003, first round, game 6 closeout game against Indy:  27/8/4 (he also had 40 in game 1, 21 & 12 in game 3, and 37, 10, 7 in that unreal game 4..even in that disgusting Nets series when we were swept:  game 1 - 34, 8, 5; game 2 - 32,11,10; game 3 - 23,10,5; game 4 - 27,10,7.  He was hooping.)
- 2008, second round, game 7: 41, 4, 5
- 2008, ECF, game 6 closeout game against Detroit: 27, 8, 3
- 2008, Finals, game 5 (loss) - 38, 6, 8 on the road in chance to close out series
- 2008, Finals, game 6 - 17, 3, 10
- 2009, first round, game 7 - 20, 9, 4
- 2010, ECF, game 6 - 31, 13, 5
I obviously highlighted the great games, b/c he admittedly has a couple warts on his career (who doesn't?), but when you look at the limited opportunities he has had to step up on the big stage, the evidence is undeniable.  He has played on some really crappy teams; every the playoff team before 2008 was below average teams that he carried beyond their ability.

When you look at team success, its hard to put Pierce above several GREAT Celtics, but if you look at him individually as a player, in terms of talent, ability, clutch play, toughness, fundamentals...any attribute you want in a player, I think an argument can be made for him to be either #3 after Russell/Bird or #4 after Russell/Bird/Hondo.  Cousy was great, but lets be honest, the league just wasn't as talented back then (having said that I'd understand putting Cousy ahead of Pierce).  An argument can be made for McHale.  After that, I don't see it.         

[nickagneta]

Not one guy in the conversation of great Celtics had to endure the garbage that Pierce did in his time (his perseverance and the fact that he remained a Celtic is admirable). 

Never heard the story of Bill Russell living in Reading, MA and some of the stuff a huge, athletic, intelligent, financially independent, handsome black man had to live through in the town he lived in while bringing championships and glory to the city of Boston in the 1960's?

People picketing outside his house because of the color of his skins? Vandals breaking into his house, breaking trophies and awards he had gathered through the years and then defecating all over his house? The names and racial slurs that rained down on Russell because he was a black coach? 

Perhaps you might have worded that sentence in your praise of Pierce differently?

[j804]

Not one guy in the conversation of great Celtics had to endure the garbage that Pierce did in his time (his perseverance and the fact that he remained a Celtic is admirable).

Never heard the story of Bill Russell living in Reading, MA and some of the stuff a huge, athletic, intelligent, financially independent, handsome black man had to live through in the town he lived in while bringing championships and glory to the city of Boston in the 1960's?

People picketing outside his house because of the color of his skins? Vandals breaking into his house, breaking trophies and awards he had gathered through the years and then defecating all over his house? The names and racial slurs that rained down on Russell because he was a black coach?  

Perhaps you might have worded that sentence in your praise of Pierce differently?

Never heard of that, thats terrible.

[Rondo_is_better]

Not one guy in the conversation of great Celtics had to endure the garbage that Pierce did in his time (his perseverance and the fact that he remained a Celtic is admirable). 

Never heard the story of Bill Russell living in Reading, MA and some of the stuff a huge, athletic, intelligent, financially independent, handsome black man had to live through in the town he lived in while bringing championships and glory to the city of Boston in the 1960's?

People picketing outside his house because of the color of his skins? Vandals breaking into his house, breaking trophies and awards he had gathered through the years and then defecating all over his house? The names and racial slurs that rained down on Russell because he was a black coach? 

Perhaps you might have worded that sentence in your praise of Pierce differently?

Wow that's atrocious. That makes me want to personally apologize as a resident of Boston.

[Bahku]

Pierce is my main man, most people who know me know that, but I would not be able to list him any higher than 4th or 5th of all-time greatest Celtics, behind Russell, Bird, Havlicek ... and possibly Cousey.

But Pierce also had to persevere and carry this team/city on his back through more adversity than most have had to, and did so for a large period of time with very little help. Many on these lists had the benefit of playing alongside other superstars who made them better, and vice-versa.

Pierce is a warrior, and has done what he's done with very little recognition, minimum assistance, and very little complaining ... a class-act, in my humble opinion ... and the definition of what Red considered Celtic Pride.

[GreenFaith1819]

Not one guy in the conversation of great Celtics had to endure the garbage that Pierce did in his time (his perseverance and the fact that he remained a Celtic is admirable). 

Never heard the story of Bill Russell living in Reading, MA and some of the stuff a huge, athletic, intelligent, financially independent, handsome black man had to live through in the town he lived in while bringing championships and glory to the city of Boston in the 1960's?

People picketing outside his house because of the color of his skins? Vandals breaking into his house, breaking trophies and awards he had gathered through the years and then defecating all over his house? The names and racial slurs that rained down on Russell because he was a black coach? 

Perhaps you might have worded that sentence in your praise of Pierce differently?

Wow - Good Post, Nick..I was unaware of this.

I have never met the man, but to see Bill Russell at games and interacting with people, he seems to be a Great Human being.

Thanks!

[Bahku]

Not one guy in the conversation of great Celtics had to endure the garbage that Pierce did in his time (his perseverance and the fact that he remained a Celtic is admirable).

Never heard the story of Bill Russell living in Reading, MA and some of the stuff a huge, athletic, intelligent, financially independent, handsome black man had to live through in the town he lived in while bringing championships and glory to the city of Boston in the 1960's?

People picketing outside his house because of the color of his skins? Vandals breaking into his house, breaking trophies and awards he had gathered through the years and then defecating all over his house? The names and racial slurs that rained down on Russell because he was a black coach?  

Perhaps you might have worded that sentence in your praise of Pierce differently?

Wow - Good Post, Nick..I was unaware of this.

I have never met the man, but to see Bill Russell at games and interacting with people, he seems to be a Great Human being.

Thanks!

I wrote a long post about this once, of the adversity that Russell had to fight through, and of how Red Aurbach's courage and character was hugely responsible for breaking the race barriers in professional sports. Credit where it's due, Russell would not have been a Celtic if Red had not had the steel and integrity to hire him and stand by him. This was all done in a city where racial tensions at that time were some of the worst in the country. Red was a truly amazing human being, and one of towering courage and fairness ... as is Bill, who knows that as much as anyone.

[GreenFaith1819]

Not one guy in the conversation of great Celtics had to endure the garbage that Pierce did in his time (his perseverance and the fact that he remained a Celtic is admirable).

Never heard the story of Bill Russell living in Reading, MA and some of the stuff a huge, athletic, intelligent, financially independent, handsome black man had to live through in the town he lived in while bringing championships and glory to the city of Boston in the 1960's?

People picketing outside his house because of the color of his skins? Vandals breaking into his house, breaking trophies and awards he had gathered through the years and then defecating all over his house? The names and racial slurs that rained down on Russell because he was a black coach?  

Perhaps you might have worded that sentence in your praise of Pierce differently?

Wow - Good Post, Nick..I was unaware of this.

I have never met the man, but to see Bill Russell at games and interacting with people, he seems to be a Great Human being.

Thanks!

I wrote a long post about this once, of the adversity that Russell had to fight through, and of how Red Aurbach's courage and character was hugely responsible for breaking the race barriers in professional sports. Credit where it's due, Russell would not have been a Celtic if Red had not had the steel and integrity to hire him and stand by him. This was all done in a city where racial tensions at that time were some of the worst in the country. Red was a truly amazing human being, and one of towering courage and fairness ... as is Bill, who knows that as much as anyone.

Yeah - I've read some articles about how Red didn't care about skin color - he just cared about if you could play.

Red was a Great One, too.

[Celtics Fan]

I have Pierce as number 5 ahead of McHale.

I'm with bankshot on this one Paul is Celtic Legend worthy of the top 5 tier. And if we beat L.Gay. He'll definatley be there. Go P2.

[RevereRussell6]

First if the Celtics do win I think the media has already pegged Rondo as MVP. Second I think people underrate Cousy. The top 4 are easily Russell, Bird, Cousy, and Havlicek in that order. Next is a little trickier, I would say Cowens then McHale. After that we can start talking about Pierce (with or without a second Finals MVP). Still with all the terrific Celtics it is hard to even crack the top 15, so even if he is at 7 that is a pretty good feat.

I am not seeing Mchale or Cowens over Pierce.  I think Pierce is comfortably in the best five players in Celtics history at this point. 

[clover]

If Pierce wins another Finals MVP he'll be insufferable--and we won't mind that he moves back to LA once he retires!