Rumor or excuse: Lebron's elbow is worse than first reported (merged)

[Lucky17]

Okay, here is my take on the elbow.  I think it is hurt, I really do, I haven't used it as an excuse and I still won't, the Celtics are playing great.

I honestly think it was hurting him pretty badly in the Chicago series when he shot the left handed free throw.  He asked Brown to take a timeout and Brown didn't.  He didn't want to hurt his elbow more so he shot left handed.

Now he will not use his elbow as an excuse, the media might, but Lebron won't.  But, not being able to use the elbow as an excuse has caused a lot of media to call him weak, accuse him of conspiring against his coach, accus him of quitting, etc.  Through all of this he has still not mentioned his elbow.  He could easily come out now and say his elbow is really messed up and all would be forgiven, but that's not how he plays.  He plays through injuries.  But, this one may actually be getting the best of him which is affecting hs demeanor.

I could be completely wrong, I could be right.  Who knows?  All of these answers will come in time.  

You may have something there, MMac.

But, if you are going to play through an injury, then don't you change up your game to accommodate it? Why jack up shots from the perimeter? Back your man down, or take it to the hole.

[Birdbrain]

I like many of us, have seen LeBron play A LOT. He is playing timid. He is extremely reluctant to put up long distance shots. And he is going to his left towards the basket an awful lot more than usual.

These are not circumstances being brought about or forced upon LeBron by the defense the Celtics are playing. These are conscience decisions being made by LeBron to do these things.

I have been saying this through most of this series. This is not some half baked excuse. There is definitely something wrong with his elbow and LeBron is changing his game to accommodate the right elbow. I said it earlier in the week and still believe it, LeBron will be undergoing surgery on that elbow this off season. I would bet my house on it.

What I don't understand about some here at Celticsblog is the vehemence of denial that there could be anything wrong with LeBron. We had no problem putting the inconsistencies of this years regular season performance of the Celtics on rehabilitation of injuries and playing through injuries.

We are for the most part a very astute group of basketball fans. If we can see what happened to the C's when they played through rehabbing knees and hurting wrists and thumbs and shoulders and backs and other problems, why is it so hard for us to believe, given the very un-LeBron like performances and tendencies we are seeing, that there is actually something wrong with the man?

Some of us don't agree.  And I don't really care about other peoples injuries knowing we should be working on a 3 peat.

Cry me a river basically.

You can believe whatever you choose just don't give me crap because I don't care.

As a Celtic fan I feel the same way you do. Screw him and the Cavs. Too bad. If KG doesn't get hurt we are looking at Banner 19 this spring instead of Banner 18.

Play through and shut up. What I got to give LeBron props for though is he is doing just that. Playing through and keeping his mouth shut.

I still think he's hurt.

No doubt I was just saying the other day he's held up better than most of the fans.  In fact I think the fans are more upset that he isn't more upset and airing his excuses to the media. 

[Fafnir]

You honestly think LeBron has sucked in the playoffs his entire career?

 

Re-read what I posted:
"Lebron has sucked in the playoffs whenever a good defensive team gets determined to stop him."

What were the good defensive teams he faced?
Pistons in 07, Spurs in 07, Celtics in 08, Magic in 09.
Against the Pistons in 07 he was great in 3 games, but sucked in another 3, including a 10 point, 33%fg game, a 19 point, 27%fg and 6 turnover game,  and a 20 point, 27%fg game.

Against the spurs, he shot over 40% once, and had at least 5 turnovers all 4 games.

Against the Celtics in 08, he was atrocious in 5 out of 7 games.

Last year against the Magic was the exception.

If you don't believe me, compare his numbers this series with his numbers in the series above.

You should check out what you wrote because you said two different things, the quote you say and this:

In 08, he was atrocious in 6 out of 7 games. Was it the elbow back then, too? Lebron played great against the magic last year, so people forget that he has sucked in the playoffs for most of his career (that series against the pistons being the exception).

You said he's sucked in the playoffs most of his career, are you changing that to: "He's sucked against the best defensive teams"?

I don't agree that he sucked against the Celtics in 07-08. I think he struggled for two to three games and then adjusted. And that was against the best defensive team in modern NBA history. I also think you're focusing too much on his scoring, LeBron is a great playmaker and used that to great effect against that 07-08 Celtics team.

He's had his bad games, but he hasn't sucked in the playoffs.

[RJ87]

I like many of us, have seen LeBron play A LOT. He is playing timid. He is extremely reluctant to put up long distance shots. And he is going to his left towards the basket an awful lot more than usual.

These are not circumstances being brought about or forced upon LeBron by the defense the Celtics are playing. These are conscience decisions being made by LeBron to do these things.

I have been saying this through most of this series. This is not some half baked excuse. There is definitely something wrong with his elbow and LeBron is changing his game to accommodate the right elbow. I said it earlier in the week and still believe it, LeBron will be undergoing surgery on that elbow this off season. I would bet my house on it.

What I don't understand about some here at Celticsblog is the vehemence of denial that there could be anything wrong with LeBron. We had no problem putting the inconsistencies of this years regular season performance of the Celtics on rehabilitation of injuries and playing through injuries.

We are for the most part a very astute group of basketball fans. If we can see what happened to the C's when they played through rehabbing knees and hurting wrists and thumbs and shoulders and backs and other problems, why is it so hard for us to believe, given the very un-LeBron like performances and tendencies we are seeing, that there is actually something wrong with the man?

Some of us don't agree.  And I don't really care about other peoples injuries knowing we should be working on a 3 peat.

Cry me a river basically.

You can believe whatever you choose just don't give me crap because I don't care.

Exactly.
If it's hurt, then it's hurt... It's all this back & forth that's annoying. After he dominated us in game 3, it was all "Oh, his elbow's fine. Nothing to see here, move along." The day after they lose its "he looks scared. He's playing hurt."

So which is it?
Furthermore, didn't they make all those offseason signings and the Antawn trade so he'd have some help? Isn't this supposed to be the best Cleveland team he's ever had around him? So much has been put on the Elbow, no one is talking about how save for that 3rd qtr in Game 1, Mo has done another playoff disappearing act... Or the Antawn can't defend a chair... Or that Shaq seems to the only guy who gets the sense of urgency.

Say what you want about KG's knee, but thankfully Celtics brass (as much as we hated at the time) shut him down for the playoffs and didn't have him out there for his knee to take the blame if we didn't win.

[incoherent]

It's possible - something's clearly wrong with LeBron, it wouldn't surprise me if the elbow was pretty bad and the Cavs were hushing it up. 

Its not like the Celtics didn't do the exact same thing with Garnett.

My god, imagine if they SAT him on thursday? Dogs would meow. Cats would fetch. Rivers would burn.

Well actually Cleveland's rivers already burn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM

God I love that video. I've watched it like 50 times. "we think this is art" and the guy's face. Geez. hahaaha.

"At Least We Aren't Detroit!!!" 

wow that video was great haha

[BballTim]

I honestly think it was hurting him pretty badly in the Chicago series when he shot the left handed free throw.  He asked Brown to take a timeout and Brown didn't.  He didn't want to hurt his elbow more so he shot left handed.
 

  Why didn't LeBron just call a timeout himself?

[MMacOH]

I honestly think it was hurting him pretty badly in the Chicago series when he shot the left handed free throw.  He asked Brown to take a timeout and Brown didn't.  He didn't want to hurt his elbow more so he shot left handed.
 

  Why didn't LeBron just call a timeout himself?

He asked Brown how many the had left and if he could call one.  It was close to the end of the game and you don't want to use your last 20 second timeout in case you need it later.  He can' go above the coach and call a timeout in that instance.

As to why he doesn't back people down or drve to the hole?  I don't really have an answer for that

[dlpin]

You honestly think LeBron has sucked in the playoffs his entire career?

 

Re-read what I posted:
"Lebron has sucked in the playoffs whenever a good defensive team gets determined to stop him."

What were the good defensive teams he faced?
Pistons in 07, Spurs in 07, Celtics in 08, Magic in 09.
Against the Pistons in 07 he was great in 3 games, but sucked in another 3, including a 10 point, 33%fg game, a 19 point, 27%fg and 6 turnover game,  and a 20 point, 27%fg game.

Against the spurs, he shot over 40% once, and had at least 5 turnovers all 4 games.

Against the Celtics in 08, he was atrocious in 5 out of 7 games.

Last year against the Magic was the exception.

If you don't believe me, compare his numbers this series with his numbers in the series above.

You should check out what you wrote because you said two different things, the quote you say and this:

In 08, he was atrocious in 6 out of 7 games. Was it the elbow back then, too? Lebron played great against the magic last year, so people forget that he has sucked in the playoffs for most of his career (that series against the pistons being the exception).

You said he's sucked in the playoffs most of his career, are you changing that to: "He's sucked against the best defensive teams"?

I don't agree that he sucked against the Celtics in 07-08. I think he struggled for two to three games and then adjusted. And that was against the best defensive team in modern NBA history. I also think you're focusing too much on his scoring, LeBron is a great playmaker and used that to great effect against that 07-08 Celtics team.

He's had his bad games, but he hasn't sucked in the playoffs.

I thought once I made it clear I was talking about his performance against the top defensive teams in the first paragraph, I didn't need to keep qualifying my statements every time I made them.

For the record:

Lebron's stats in 08 against the celtics:

26.7ppg, 6.4 rpg, 7.6 asg, 5.2 tov, 35.5% fg, 23% 3fg, 75.5% ft

Lebron's stats this year against the celtics
26.8 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 6.6 asg, 3.6tov, 46.2%fg, 22.7%3fg, 74.1%ft

So, he is putting up virtually identical stats against pretty much the same players and the same defensive team. If anything, he is a bit more efficient, with turnovers down and fg up.

If the elbow is the excuse now, what was the excuse in 08?

As I said, he is performing now almost EXACTLY the way he's performed against other good defensive teams. Why the need for an excuse now?

As for the elbow: if the elbow is so bad, and hurting so much, why is he shooting an almost exact free throw percentage as his career average? Why was he hoisting shots from half court before the game? If his elbow is hurting his shooting so much, you'd think he'd drive more, not less. And yet, he's shot the same %fg this series as his career playoff average.

Finally, I am still waiting for anyone to tell me about this shot you can only take every 10 days but that lasts less than that. I come from a family of doctors and no one knows of something like that.

Bottom line is he is doing basically the same thing he did against the Spurs in 07, celtics in 08, and so on. At worst, he is doing his career averages.

God forbid we give the celtics credit for their defense...

[Prof. Clutch]

Okay, here is my take on the elbow.  I think it is hurt, I really do, I haven't used it as an excuse and I still won't, the Celtics are playing great.

I honestly think it was hurting him pretty badly in the Chicago series when he shot the left handed free throw.  He asked Brown to take a timeout and Brown didn't.  He didn't want to hurt his elbow more so he shot left handed.

Now he will not use his elbow as an excuse, the media might, but Lebron won't.  But, not being able to use the elbow as an excuse has caused a lot of media to call him weak, accuse him of conspiring against his coach, accus him of quitting, etc.  Through all of this he has still not mentioned his elbow. He could easily come out now and say his elbow is really messed up and all would be forgiven, but that's not how he plays.  He plays through injuries.  But, this one may actually be getting the best of him which is affecting hs demeanor.

I could be completely wrong, I could be right.  Who knows?  All of these answers will come in time. 

I like your style MMacOH, and I'm glad you've been around the blog discussing the Cavs with us Celtics fans.  I'm sure it can be difficult being around fans of a team that is playing against yours in the playoffs.

And I do agree with you that Lebron hasn't used the elbow as an excuse, although I disagree that he hasn't brought it up.

I don't know, honestly, what's going on with it...It almost feels like you hit your funny bone and it kind of numbs up for a little bit. It bothers me more because I don't actually know what it is. I don't know what is going on, but we'll figure it out.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/columns/story?page=cavsgame5elbow-100427

He has most certainly called attention to it on his own as evidenced by the fact that he could have taken that free throw with his right hand but chose not to since he didn't want to risk injuring himself further.  He said he could have taken it right handed if he needed to make it. 

[Roy Hobbs]

I don't buy it.  If it was, it would be leaked to a much more credible source.  I mean, Lebron's image is being hurt here; if he really was playing on a torn ligament, there's no way his reputation could go down, and win or lose, everyone would be talking about how he's a warrior.

I mean, what's the incentive to keep this secret, for Lebron or anybody?  In free agency, other teams will have the right to review his medical records, so that's not it.

[MMacOH]

I don't buy it.  If it was, it would be leaked to a much more credible source.  I mean, Lebron's image is being hurt here; if he really was playing on a torn ligament, there's no way his reputation could go down, and win or lose, everyone would be talking about how he's a warrior.

I mean, what's the incentive to keep this secret, for Lebron or anybody?  In free agency, other teams will have the right to review his medical records, so that's not it.

First, he did field some questions on his elbow immediately after the injury was announced (which is where that quote is from), but has since stated that he plays through injuries and will not talk about it. 

To answer you Roy, he will not mention the elbow now because it can then be used as an excuse for this series, and since I think he is keeping this from his teammates also, it would completely crush his teammates who rely on him.  I don't think Lebron is one to make excuses.  But, you can tell it is wearing on him by his demeanor

[dlpin]

First, he did field some questions on his elbow immediately after the injury was announced (which is where that quote is from), but has since stated that he plays through injuries and will not talk about it.  

To answer you Roy, he will not mention the elbow now because it can then be used as an excuse for this series, and since I think he is keeping this from his teammates also, it would completely crush his teammates who rely on him.  I don't think Lebron is one to make excuses.  But, you can tell it is wearing on him by his demeanor

Him not saying anything? Fine. His doctors, his agent, etc. not saying anything as Lebron's reputation takes a hit? Doubtful.

Again, if his elbow is bugging him so much, why is he shooting almost exactly his career average in free throws? Why is his fg% almost exactly the same as his career playoff %fg? Why is his performance almost exactly like how he performed against the same celtics 2 years ago?

[MMacOH]

First, he did field some questions on his elbow immediately after the injury was announced (which is where that quote is from), but has since stated that he plays through injuries and will not talk about it.  

To answer you Roy, he will not mention the elbow now because it can then be used as an excuse for this series, and since I think he is keeping this from his teammates also, it would completely crush his teammates who rely on him.  I don't think Lebron is one to make excuses.  But, you can tell it is wearing on him by his demeanor

Him not saying anything? Fine. His doctors, his agent, etc. not saying anything as Lebron's reputation takes a hit? Doubtful.

Again, if his elbow is bugging him so much, why is he shooting almost exactly his career average in free throws? Why is his fg% almost exactly the same as his career playoff %fg? Why is his performance almost exactly like how he performed against the same celtics 2 years ago?

Because even if his reputation takes a hit today, it would all be forgiven once the information came out.

I don't have answers to your other questions....all of this is speculation. 

[FatjohnReturns]

Everyones banged up after 82 regular season games. Do you think he is anymore injured than Pierce or KG?  The media and fans are trying to rationalize his poor performance. The reality is the Celtics defense last night was the best its been all season. They shut him down. Kudos to LBJ for not making any excuses.

[indeedproceed]

Everyones banged up after 82 regular season games. Do you think he is anymore injured than Pierce or KG? 

Well if he actually does have a torn ligament in his elbow, yes. He's way more banged up than Pierce, KG, Allen or any other Celtic.

To play devil's advocate, IF Cleveland loses the series, and IF the information is later revealed that LeBron not only played through a torn ligament in his elbow but ALSO hid it from the press, his teammates, and the fans because he didn't want to use it as an excuse, and he wanted to keep moral up..

Well I'm just saying Cleveland is gonna need a bigger banner.