Finding New Ways To Win

[Greenbean]

Anyone else encouraged by the fact that we were horrible form behind the 3 pt line yesterday and still controlled the majority of the game?

Much of the season we have lived and died by outside shooting. I like our new reliance on Rondo attacking and KG in the post much better.

[Andy Jick]

Here is my key to winning game 5 on the road:

Doc needs to add a new twist: foul-line extended PICK-AND-ROLLS!  Here's why: The Celtics MUST get LeBron in foul trouble.  The kind of offense that Doc runs is a lot like a Bobby Knight-esque "motion offense".  That's fine, but we're not putting LeBron in any position where it's HARD for him to defend someone.

Go back to the Chuck Daley "Bad Boy" days, and the one thing he did a LOT of what sideline pick-and-rolls (Jerry Sloan is notorious for this as well), clearing out half the court and making the defense have to make some tough decisions:

- Hedge the pick, allowing the dribbler to possibly make a stutter move and then drive the lane - either shooting or kicking it out or dropping it to the weakside big man.

- Or, step below the pick and allow the dribble to have space for a wide open shot.

If I'm Doc, I make certain that the guy LeBron is guarding (Pierce?) be forced into fighting through a LOT of picks...and I'd do it like Novocaine - a steady dose of it all night!

Pierce has been struggling offensively for ONE reason (of which Doc noted today): he is guarding LeBron and it's taking a lot out of him.

Well, Pierce still has the capability (I hope) to make LeBron have to work, and it's high time that Doc turned the tables...

This is just my opinion, but if we don't steal game 5 and come home and win this series in six, we won't win it at all.  Because if we lose game 5 the pressure is now on for two MUST win games in a row.  I honestly believe the Cavs are too good for this Celtics team to do that.

It's time to make LeBron work hard for a change, and force the refs to actually blow some whistles on him...

[BballTim]

Here is my key to winning game 5 on the road:

Doc needs to add a new twist: foul-line extended PICK-AND-ROLLS!  Here's why: The Celtics MUST get LeBron in foul trouble. 

  If our game plan depends on the refs calling enough fouls on LeBron to get him in foul trouble then we're screwed. Won't happen, no matter what's going on in the game.

[misha]

Doc needs to add a new twist: foul-line extended PICK-AND-ROLLS!  Here's why: The Celtics MUST get LeBron in foul trouble. 

I don't think Lebron was in foul trouble even once in his whole NBA career.

[Andy Jick]

You guys have missed my point...  WHEN in this series have we put LeBron in a position to even get in foul trouble?

Run 4 straight pick-and-rolls on LeBron...  maybe he'll get frustrated and push the guy setting the pick.  Result: cheap foul.

Pierce drives the lane and LeBron hits him on the elbow.  Result: 2nd foul.

This could be achieved in the first 2-3 minutes of the game.

The Cavs are doing a nice job of getting Pierce into foul trouble...why can't we turn the tables?  Instead we continue to run this stupid motion offense (of which I've hated since day 1) where the bigs are 25 feet away from the rim.  Even when we run pick-and-rolls, it's too cluttered.  The spacing on the floor isn't any good.  So there's nowhere for the dribble to go because he runs into another big man who's still standing at the top of the key.  They need to completely clear the side of the floor and move the other 2 wing players to a good spacing area on the weak side and DROP the opposing big man to the weakside baseline.

But in my estimation we have put very little to near no defensive pressure on LeBron and we don't even force the refs to have to make calls on him.

[Greenbean]

I agree with you Andy that we have to make LeBron work hard on defense.

Half of the reason that LeBron doesnt get called for a lot of fouls is because he shies away from contact on the defensive end. Maybe running him into alot of screens would bait him into some contact.

Still I cant see him in foul trouble but there are no negatives to this strategy.

By the way that "stupid" motion offense has ranked as one of the most efficient in the league the last 3 seasons.

It's not like they never go to the pick and roll game but it is situational. Im not sure they would go to it for extended stretches unless they had to.

[Andy Jick]

By the way that "stupid" motion offense has ranked as one of the most efficient in the league the last 3 seasons.

I'm just old school...  I miss the days when guys actually played positions: point guards, shooting guards, small forwards, power forwards, and centers.  Today we just call them "bigs" and "wings"...  The league is too vanilla for my tastes, as it's become a glorified college game.  I'm not a fan of 6'11" guys who want to play guard or run the point. 

But that's just me...

[housecall]

By the way that "stupid" motion offense has ranked as one of the most efficient in the league the last 3 seasons.

I'm just old school...  I miss the days when guys actually played positions: point guards, shooting guards, small forwards, power forwards, and centers.  Today we just call them "bigs" and "wings"...  The league is too vanilla for my tastes, as it's become a glorified college game.  I'm not a fan of 6'11" guys who want to play guard or run the point. 

But that's just me...

I agree,was thinking on the same lines one day,and noticed this league is growing closer to be like euro-league style of play as things progress.Its just my own take on it,but im not feeling it.Its probably the direction David Sterns would like to see it go for different reasons.tp

[Q_FBE]

I think it boils down to paying attention to defensive detail, boxing out, winning the 50-50 battles for loose balls, and avoiding the turnovers. The Celtics did all those things yesterday and earned their 2nd win of the series against a Cleveland team who played tough yesterday (they did get the first seven points scored and had their way in the 3rd qtr).

Another player who contributed mightily but got unsung recognition was Rasheed Wallace who defended the paint well and even hit the floor a couple of times during his second half stint with Tony Allen and Glen Davis during that key 4th Qtr run. We know he can score but yesterday he did not score much (if at all from the field) but he made a nice stop on Hickson. Hopefully, Rasheed can build off of this and keep getting after it. Still need the Sheed to climb this enourmous playoff mountain.

Paul Pierce might get scoring opportunities if Lebron goes after Rondo in Game 5 as I suspect he will. I hope he capitalizes.

[Greenbean]

By the way that "stupid" motion offense has ranked as one of the most efficient in the league the last 3 seasons.

I'm just old school...  I miss the days when guys actually played positions: point guards, shooting guards, small forwards, power forwards, and centers.  Today we just call them "bigs" and "wings"...  The league is too vanilla for my tastes, as it's become a glorified college game.  I'm not a fan of 6'11" guys who want to play guard or run the point. 

But that's just me...

I definitely hear you there.

Isnt it funnny that big guys are trying to play like small guys and yet the game keeps getting slower and slower?

[Andy Jick]

By the way that "stupid" motion offense has ranked as one of the most efficient in the league the last 3 seasons.

I'm just old school...  I miss the days when guys actually played positions: point guards, shooting guards, small forwards, power forwards, and centers.  Today we just call them "bigs" and "wings"...  The league is too vanilla for my tastes, as it's become a glorified college game.  I'm not a fan of 6'11" guys who want to play guard or run the point. 

But that's just me...

I definitely hear you there.

Isnt it funnny that big guys are trying to play like small guys and yet the game keeps getting slower and slower?

Pat Riley probably did more to advance the game in the 80's as much as he killed the game in the 90's.  He went from "Showtime" (Lakers) to "Slowtime" (Knicks).  I'm all for defense, but not at the expense of offense.

I'm 37...I can actually remember the first day the high school game added the 3 point line to the game.  What's funny is that was probably THE one rule that started the death of the professional game (a 'trickle up' effect).  Reason being, EVERYBODY grabbed a basketball and the first thing they did was head out to the that line and start shooting.  In that moment nearly everyone wanted to be a guard, and thus the demise of the true "big men"...  But I digress. 

[BballTim]

By the way that "stupid" motion offense has ranked as one of the most efficient in the league the last 3 seasons.

I'm just old school...  I miss the days when guys actually played positions: point guards, shooting guards, small forwards, power forwards, and centers.  Today we just call them "bigs" and "wings"...  The league is too vanilla for my tastes, as it's become a glorified college game.  I'm not a fan of 6'11" guys who want to play guard or run the point. 

But that's just me...

I definitely hear you there.

Isnt it funnny that big guys are trying to play like small guys and yet the game keeps getting slower and slower?

Pat Riley probably did more to advance the game in the 80's as much as he killed the game in the 90's.  He went from "Showtime" (Lakers) to "Slowtime" (Knicks).  I'm all for defense, but not at the expense of offense.

  Don't forget to mention the immortal Chuck Daly...

[Greenbean]

By the way that "stupid" motion offense has ranked as one of the most efficient in the league the last 3 seasons.

I'm just old school...  I miss the days when guys actually played positions: point guards, shooting guards, small forwards, power forwards, and centers.  Today we just call them "bigs" and "wings"...  The league is too vanilla for my tastes, as it's become a glorified college game.  I'm not a fan of 6'11" guys who want to play guard or run the point. 

But that's just me...

I definitely hear you there.

Isnt it funnny that big guys are trying to play like small guys and yet the game keeps getting slower and slower?

Pat Riley probably did more to advance the game in the 80's as much as he killed the game in the 90's.  He went from "Showtime" (Lakers) to "Slowtime" (Knicks).  I'm all for defense, but not at the expense of offense.

I'm 37...I can actually remember the first day the high school game added the 3 point line to the game.  What's funny is that was probably THE one rule that started the death of the professional game (a 'trickle up' effect).  Reason being, EVERYBODY grabbed a basketball and the first thing they did was head out to the that line and start shooting.  In that moment nearly everyone wanted to be a guard, and thus the demise of the true "big men"...  But I digress. 

VERY interesting take on the 3 pt line addition to high school competition.

TP

I am 24 and when I started playing, because I was small I would sit behind that line all day until my fingers were caloused.

So, I considered myself a shooter which I was. I was also coached very young not to take jumpshots early in the shot clock, especially threes.

You are completely correct. The 3 pt line completely changed the way the game was tought among other factors like emphasis on 1 on 1 play, and the decline of endurance conditioning in basketball.

[Andy Jick]

By the way that "stupid" motion offense has ranked as one of the most efficient in the league the last 3 seasons.

I'm just old school...  I miss the days when guys actually played positions: point guards, shooting guards, small forwards, power forwards, and centers.  Today we just call them "bigs" and "wings"...  The league is too vanilla for my tastes, as it's become a glorified college game.  I'm not a fan of 6'11" guys who want to play guard or run the point. 

But that's just me...

I definitely hear you there.

Isnt it funnny that big guys are trying to play like small guys and yet the game keeps getting slower and slower?

Pat Riley probably did more to advance the game in the 80's as much as he killed the game in the 90's.  He went from "Showtime" (Lakers) to "Slowtime" (Knicks).  I'm all for defense, but not at the expense of offense.

  Don't forget to mention the immortal Chuck Daly...

LOL!!  Yes, you are correct!  TP!  The "Bad Boys" changed the way the game was played in that they became the anti-Lakers.  It's kinda comical, but people "want" to believe the Celtics of Bird's era were these slow-it-down, plod down the floor and throw it inside / half-court team.  But that couldn't be further from the truth.

Watch some old Celtics games and see how EVERYONE ran the floor, especially Robert Parish.  Ainge & Johnson pushed the ball constantly and the Celtics have ALWAYS been a "running" team.  They probably got labeled with that plodding reputation because they knew the way to beat the Lakers was to slow it down.  But "slow it down" during that era meant to keep the score in the 110 range, not the 130 the Lakers wanted...LOL!

Riley & Daley were perfectly content with a final score of 80-70, and that honestly SUCKED to watch, which is why I kinda walked away from the game in that era...

[jambr380]

By the way that "stupid" motion offense has ranked as one of the most efficient in the league the last 3 seasons.

I'm just old school...  I miss the days when guys actually played positions: point guards, shooting guards, small forwards, power forwards, and centers.  Today we just call them "bigs" and "wings"...  The league is too vanilla for my tastes, as it's become a glorified college game.  I'm not a fan of 6'11" guys who want to play guard or run the point. 

But that's just me...

I definitely hear you there.

Isnt it funnny that big guys are trying to play like small guys and yet the game keeps getting slower and slower?

Pat Riley probably did more to advance the game in the 80's as much as he killed the game in the 90's.  He went from "Showtime" (Lakers) to "Slowtime" (Knicks).  I'm all for defense, but not at the expense of offense.

I'm 37...I can actually remember the first day the high school game added the 3 point line to the game.  What's funny is that was probably THE one rule that started the death of the professional game (a 'trickle up' effect).  Reason being, EVERYBODY grabbed a basketball and the first thing they did was head out to the that line and start shooting.  In that moment nearly everyone wanted to be a guard, and thus the demise of the true "big men"...  But I digress. 

VERY interesting take on the 3 pt line addition to high school competition.

TP

I am 24 and when I started playing, because I was small I would sit behind that line all day until my fingers were caloused.

So, I considered myself a shooter which I was. I was also coached very young not to take jumpshots early in the shot clock, especially threes.

You are completely correct. The 3 pt line completely changed the way the game was tought among other factors like emphasis on 1 on 1 play, and the decline of endurance conditioning in basketball.

All I know is that when I play a pick up game, I am always frustrated. I have a pretty killer post/drive game, but I have to work my butt off to get one point, while these horrible 'players' jack up three after three to get two points. When they are on my team and they are good, I am happy, but it almost seems like two different games.