Author Topic: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs  (Read 13030 times)

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Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2010, 12:06:42 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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I'm sick and tired of makeup calls, too.  Watching a game last week, there was a close call against the home team (which, on replay, looked like a foul); the crowd started yelling, players were complaining, you KNEW the road team was going to get a ticky-tack offensive foul called on them the next trip down the court.  They barely even try to hide what they're doing.

That's the kind of Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. that rips right at the heart of the sport, and Sterns wants us to ignore it?   

Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2010, 12:19:30 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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a bit over the top by stern with the "make my day" and "they send money to their mom" rhetoric.

however, i basically agree with his comments that this harping does corrode the game and is a distraction. i dont like stern, but i understand his basic point.

but in response to stern, i respect his views on defending the game by defending the refs.

BUT, if he finds the refs so central to the game's credibility, then he absolutely should do much more to ensure that the refs do a better job of making calls, training them, and showing us how exactly they are rated, evaluated, and held responsible by the nba.
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Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2010, 12:28:19 PM »

Offline Jon Niednagel

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Well, I see LeBron complained about the charge called against him last night. If Stern wants to send a message and show his statements are not a hollow threat, he should suspend James. That would let everyone know the commish meant what he said. Of course, everyone knows Bron won't even be fined for his comments, which is the perfect  example or microcosm of the problem in the NBA to begin with.
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Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2010, 12:31:22 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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You know what's a distraction and a detriment to the game?  The crappy, inconsistent, and often obviously biased reffing.

The players and coaches aren't just commenting because they want to get attention.  Even the most objective observer would have to admit that there are often some pretty awful and questionable calls made in big games in the NBA, especially in favor of superstars.  Add that to the fact that refs can have a bigger impact on a basketball game than in pretty much any other sport and it can get really ugly really fast.
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Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2010, 01:07:32 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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Thing is, I think Stern has a relatively simple solution to the whole problem, if he wanted to solve it.


He needs to say/do the following:




"The NBA is a very hard game to officiate. We have huge athletes moving very fast with a lot of calls made on judgments.

I understand that every fan base thinks that their team receives an unfair proportion of bad calls. Clearly, it's mathematically impossible for every team to be on the wrong end of the most unfair calls; this is how the human mind works, and I acknowledge that. Furthermore, I understand that there is a perception that certain players are called differently than other players. I also do not believe this is true, and this again has to do with how our minds work.

Let's start with "superstar" calls. We remember the bad calls made in favor of a "superstar." However, we quickly forget or never even realize the calls that said superstar should have received yet never got whistled. In addition, we as fans rarely acknowledge or remember the bad calls that go against a superstar. What I believe is really going on here is two things.

-First, we are misdirected by shear volume. Great Players have the ball in their hands a lot of the time. Since we disproportionately choose to remember bad calls that favor the superstar, and the superstar has the ball a lot of the time, it appears that said superstar has a lot of unfair calls in his favor. However, in that same amount of time, this superstar has the same number of unfair calls go against him; we do not remember those. Furthermore, Non-superstar players also have unfair calls for and against them at the same rate as do superstars. However, because they have the ball less often, they don't SEEM to have as many unfair calls in their favor.

-Second, there is confusion between "superstar calls" and "calls that go in the superstar's direction" I have news that will upset. some of you: Superstars are superstars because they are better players than others. They are able to do things better than other players, and thus end up getting fouled. They are just so slightly more athletic that they can get to a spot before a defender, thus getting fouled. Because they are better, their defenders are more jumpy, more likely to go for their better fakes, and thus more likely to commit a foul.

The same is true on defense. Some people feel the league has an agenda to not allow certain players to foul out. As evidence, they cite low fouls per game, and watch a specific player for a game and say that "player x could have been called for 7 fouls that game and only got called for 2." I will strongly argue that there is no conspiracy from the league. Instead, why not acknowledge, again, that superstars are superstars because they are better at basketball. They have better body control, and are able to avoid fouling at a much greater RATE than non-stars. They are intentionally using their basketball skill to AVOID fouls by the way the game is being called. It is not enough to say "player x committed 6 fouls and was called for 2." What were you calling a foul? You were also focusing on player x to prove your point. What about the other players? I will wager that if player x "committed" 6 fouls and was called for 2, that an impartial judge would find that other players on the court that were called for 4 fouls "actually" committed 12 fouls, if we were to apply the criteria used to judge the fouls the superstar "committed." It is not enough to say the refs did not call all the fouls player x committed, we must see whether player x was called for the same percentage of fouls that they committed by the same standards as all other players. I venture that this is the case in the NBA.

In conclusion about superstars, it is not enough to just count the number of calls that go in their direction. Instead, we must count the number of WRONG calls in their direction, the number of WRONG NO-calls in their direction, the number of WRONG calls AGAINST them and the number of WRONG NO-calls AGAINST them, and see if they balance. Superstars are better at basketball. They do not "earn" more calls. Rather, because they are better, they CAUSE the defense to foul them if they are trying to stop them.

There are similar problems with any fan's given favorite team, and similar factors are at work. We remember the bad calls made against our team at a far greater rate than we remember the bad calls made against our opponents; we remember the bad no-calls that hurt our team far more often than we remember the bad no-calls that helped.


I understand your frustration. I care deeply about this product and about your feelings toward this league. So we are going to fix this.

First, we do not need players and especially coaches clouding the facts. Thus, we are going to implement heavier fines and actual suspensions for criticisms of refereeing. But this by itself will not work. By itself, this can be seen as just not acknowledging a problem; this is just censorship. I do not want this to be the case. We are not implementing these suspensions to stop players and coaches from pointing out injustices; rather, we are implementing these suspensions to stop coaches and players from CONTRIBUTING to such injustices.

Second, we will attack this issue from another angle. Our referees are very good at their difficult jobs, and they get an overwhelming number of calls correct. But, as with any job, there need be accountability and there is always room for improvement. Because this issue is so important to you and me, here is what we are going to do.

1. We will assemble a large group of impartial game reviewers whose job is to be trained on the rules of basketball, watch all games, and just enter raw data into databases. They will log all calls made that were correct, all calls made that were incorrect, all non-whistles on close plays that were correct, and all non-whistles on close plays that should have been called. They will enter this data attached to given subjects: A correct call will be entered in correlation with the ref that made the call, the player that earned a beneficial call, and the player that earned a negative call. An incorrect call will be entered in correlation with the ref that made the bad call, the player that benefited from the bad call, and the player that was unjustly punished from a bad call. Same idea for non-calls.

As we track this data, we will see whether certain players get more "bad" calls in their favor, not in absolute values, but RELATIVE to other players. We will see how accurate our refs are, and where they can improve: are their errors due to making bad calls or NOT making calls they should have made? In addition, we can track whether our referees have a harder time consistently correctly calling certain teams and/or players. Fans may call this referee bias; I would call it needing more individual education on interpreting our rules. As the data comes out, we will have educational training seminars so we may work with our referees to correct any disturbing trends.

In addition, we will make available a weekly 1-hour online and NBA-TV broadcasted show detailing how our staff breaks down a sample game from each week, so you at home can follow along and judge the fairness of our evaluators.

Clearly, there is more transparency in this model and also makes the job more difficult for referees. As such, I worry that it may decrease the incentive for good referees to continue their jobs. As such, and because this is so important to get right, we are also raising overall referee salaries. We will begin with a slight decline in base salary, then add significantly large (and continuously increasing) bonuses for hitting certain benchmarks of consistency and accuracy as determined by our review team. This is not relative to each other, but is based purely on individual ref accuracy. As such, my dream world would be to give all refs the full bonus for 100% accuracy every year. For example, right now the average ref salary is 128K. Compared to the league-wide revenue, this is small. The general idea is to decrease the base salary to 100K. If a ref is 90% accurate, they get a 10K bonus. 91%, 20K. 92%, 30K. So perhaps a nearly perfect ref could double his or her salary for the year. That is significant incentive to make the right call, even if being intimidated by players, coaches, or fans. And it is worth the league budget to do so.

I love this league, and your fandom and respect is critical to my job. I fully believe that the data we will compile will fully match what I have told you today. Thank you."

-David Stern.

Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2010, 01:08:52 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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Well, I see LeBron complained about the charge called against him last night. If Stern wants to send a message and show his statements are not a hollow threat, he should suspend James. That would let everyone know the commish meant what he said. Of course, everyone knows Bron won't even be fined for his comments, which is the perfect  example or microcosm of the problem in the NBA to begin with.

For all the complaints that Bron gets all the calls...that was a bad call. Definitely a defensive block.

Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2010, 01:11:50 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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I know I am likely in the minority with this comment, but I would have to defend Stern in this case. I am willing to bet that if you figured out the % of mistakes made by refs they are MUCH lower than those made by the players in the game, coaches, and quite honestly the rest of us in our own jobs. There is no way with the physical strength and speed of these guys that they can be perfect. It just isn't possible. There are very rare circumstances where the refs mistake costs a team a game. Usually it is just an excuse for losing.

Consider Sterns dilemma. His only goal is to build the league and put the owners in a position to make money on their investment. He does that through trying to put a product out there that the rest of us want to see. When their own coaches and players make comments that insinuate that things are fixed, it hurts the league. He has to stop it, and he is definitely right. If they don't like it they can go elsewhere. No one forces them to play or coach and earn obscene amounts of money. Expecting perfection from referees is not a fair demand. Telling the players and coaches to not undermine the integrity of the game, whether something is justified or not, is a fair demand. Your employer wouldn't allow you to make these kind of accusations to the public about your own company, and neither should he.

I'm sorry, but if he really wants a product that the rest of us want to see, then he should go back to the NBA rules in the early-mid 80's when men were men and the sport was a battle. Now you can't touch a player or they call a foul, which opens up the door to all these ghost fouls that allow officials to manipulate games and players reputations. Stop the crap with the special treatment of players and teams to market them and then the complaints will stop. Let the players play ball instead of trying to make it a kid's sport and the complaints will stop and viewership will skyrocket. I guarantee you most people would love to see NBA basketball that is not restricted to PG rating. He can keep up with his threats and arrogance, but this all will eventually backfire on the NBA sooner or later, and I'm betting sooner. It's very telling that players are the ones complaining that games are fixed.

Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2010, 01:22:12 PM »

Offline Mr October

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That last sentence is hilarious. I'm sure T Donaghy was sending money home to his mom and charity.

So I assume if you criticize Stern himself you get whacked.

Obviously what we'll get is a lot more

"It was a good game. Both teams played hard. "

Meanwhile the guys he can't punish like Tommy, Jeff Van Gundy, Hubie, etc will say what everyone is thinking

It's just another "Who do you believe. Me or your own lying eyes?"

Hahah, seriously! What was that last sentence all about? The refs send all their money to their mothers and charity??? Well, if that is the case how could there possibly be any agendas.

I would love to see the games called more fairly player to player. Stars get preferential treatment - and I can understand it from a money point of view - but it creates havoc among players perception, coaches perception, and the fans perception of the games integrity.

The damage is done Stern.

Aside from the star treatment, the officiating is still good enough... otherwise I wouldn't be watching anymore.

Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2010, 01:23:37 PM »

Offline liam

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Is LeBron going to be fined?

Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2010, 01:26:07 PM »

Offline Mr October

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Quote
Is LeBron going to be fined?

Does Lebron complain?  :o

Lebron, who plays a very physical style of basketball, yet only averages 1.5 fouls per game?  ::)

Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2010, 01:31:20 PM »

Offline Onslaught

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Quote
Is LeBron going to be fined?

Does Lebron complain?  :o

Lebron, who plays a very physical style of basketball, yet only averages 1.5 fouls per game?  ::)
That says it all to me. When James fouls out of a game then I'll start thinking that the NBA is becoming fair. Until then Stern can go do stuff to himself.
Peace through Tyranny

Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2010, 01:32:21 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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Quote
Is LeBron going to be fined?

Does Lebron complain?  :o

Lebron, who plays a very physical style of basketball, yet only averages 1.5 fouls per game?  ::)
That says it all to me. When James fouls out of a game then I'll start thinking that the NBA is becoming fair. Until then Stern can go do stuff to himself.

To be fair, if the NBA were called by the book our own Perkins would probably foul out in the first quarter on picks alone...and he averages about 3 fouls per game.

Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2010, 02:13:40 PM »

Offline screwedupmaniac

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Stern needs to stop making excuses and fix the real problem...incompetent refs.

Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2010, 03:06:56 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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That last sentence is hilarious. I'm sure T Donaghy was sending money home to his mom and charity.

So I assume if you criticize Stern himself you get whacked.

Obviously what we'll get is a lot more

"It was a good game. Both teams played hard. "

Meanwhile the guys he can't punish like Tommy, Jeff Van Gundy, Hubie, etc will say what everyone is thinking

It's just another "Who do you believe. Me or your own lying eyes?"

Hahah, seriously! What was that last sentence all about? The refs send all their money to their mothers and charity??? Well, if that is the case how could there possibly be any agendas.


Perhaps "charity" is code for "bookies"? :D

Re: Stern ready to suspend coaches, players who criticize refs
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2010, 03:35:39 PM »

Offline LB3533

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David Stern is the best commish in the pro sports world.

I applaud anyone who will stand up and play mind games with Phil Jackson.