Ok fine, i'll be the first to bring it up... (BBD starting over KG, merged)

[Mike-Dub]

Half court offense and defense win in the playoffs.

[wdleehi]

The dominance over the Heat started halfway through the third quarter, when KG was playing.

[Brendan]

KG as 6th man?

[Chris]

i think some of you missed the global argument.  I'm not backtracking by emphasizing that we are better with KG.

My point was that we are a better running team with BBD in there over KG.  I don't know how to quantify that, maybe someone can look up fast break points in games BBD started over KG.

I'm NOT comparing the two players straight up.  I just think that we outran Miami last night, and we can do that to some other teams, and i believe BBD is a better option FOR THAT STYLE OF PLAY.

I get that...and I disagree.  KG is a better defender, which leads to more fast breaks.  He is a better rebounder, which leads to more fast breaks.  He is a better finisher in the lane.  He is a better passer, which leads to more layups.  

Last night, we had success running on Miami because we got stops, and Rondo was going out of his way to push the ball.  Davis had little to do with that.

[Fafnir]

i think some of you missed the global argument.  I'm not backtracking by emphasizing that we are better with KG.

My point was that we are a better running team with BBD in there over KG.  I don't know how to quantify that, maybe someone can look up fast break points in games BBD started over KG.

I'm NOT comparing the two players straight up.  I just think that we outran Miami last night, and we can do that to some other teams, and i believe BBD is a better option FOR THAT STYLE OF PLAY.

But transition buckets aren't more important than overall offensive/defense play.

Besides I think KG runs pretty well himself.

[blake]

TP for having the juevos to ask the question...

I like the question and to answer the question..Yes, and No and Hell NO.

Yes, there are situations in which BBD can be useful.  He can hustle down the court more than an injured KG.

No, those situations do not outweigh the situations in which KG is better.

Hell NO...did you see that stat last night that 20% of his shots get blocked?  20%!  That is crazy!  If he were blocked at a normal rate of a PF he could easily be shooting at 50% for the year.  Most of his misses from last night were blocks.

That is not to take anything away from his amazing game last night.  Between he and Ray Ray, Perk, and Rondo, we could have started Tony Allen for Pierce and been fine.

[slamtheking]

I attribute BBD's numbers last night to the gang rebounding effort that usually doesn't exist when KG is on the floor.  Since KG is the primary rebounder when he's playing, he's less able to run up the court on fastbreaks.  Last night the whole team hit the defensive boards thereby allowing BBD to head downcourt sooner and get some good position/looks at the basket.  

I have no doubt that if we gang rebounded the next game with KG thereby allowing him to get ahead on some fastbreaks I'm more than positive he'd look even more impressive than BBD if for no other reason than he'd be ahead of his defender just like BBD was and in addition he wouldn't be getting stuffed as often when going to the hoop.

[muddy02]

ok, i felt like i owed you guys some numbers, so i just went and tallied these:

The 9 game stretch in Jan where KG was out, the celtics scored a total of 139 fast break points (according to nba.com) for an average of 15.4 per game.

Now i know that Sheed "started" for KG in that stretch but we all know BBD played a ton of minutes, and Sheed was just hanging out by the 3 point line in transition.

Can anyone find the season average per game for the C's to compare?  if the numbers prove me wrong then i will happily admit it.

[Chris]

ok, i felt like i owed you guys some numbers, so i just went and tallied these:

The 9 game stretch in Jan where KG was out, the celtic scored a total of 139 fast break points (according to nba.com) for an average of 15.4 per game.

Now i know that Sheed "started" for KG in that stretch but we all know BBD played a ton of minutes, and Sheed was just hanging out by the 3 point line in transition.

Can anyone find the season average per game for the C's to compare?  if the numbers prove me wrong then i will happily admit it.

I really don't see how that comparison would show anything though.  There are WAY too many variable, not the least of which is the play of Rondo, who has often picked up his game when KG has been out.

[muddy02]

ok, i felt like i owed you guys some numbers, so i just went and tallied these:

The 9 game stretch in Jan where KG was out, the celtic scored a total of 139 fast break points (according to nba.com) for an average of 15.4 per game.

Now i know that Sheed "started" for KG in that stretch but we all know BBD played a ton of minutes, and Sheed was just hanging out by the 3 point line in transition.

Can anyone find the season average per game for the C's to compare?  if the numbers prove me wrong then i will happily admit it.

I really don't see how that comparison would show anything though.  There are WAY too many variable, not the least of which is the play of Rondo, who has often picked up his game when KG has been out.

Does that mean KG should be benched to get the most out of Rondo?  JK

i agree that there are nunerous variables (opponents, how many break away layups TA misses, etc.) but i don't know how else to quantify it.  This just seems like a simple high level view to either say we fast break more or less when KG is out. 

I honestly don't know the answer, i've been looking...

[Spilling Green Dye]

The numbers don't support you. Over the course of the season we're better offensively and defensively with KG on the court instead of BBD. We're even a better rebounding team with KG as he's a much better defensive rebounder.

BBD's energy and hustle is very useful to the team, but it isn't always productive hustle. KG still needs to start and play the most minutes of our big men.

Thank you for putting this in a much friendlier manner than I would have.  The numbers are in fact grossly different, not just a bit.

Despite knowing that a silly thread like this would be posted today, I'm still caught off guard by it b/c it is so ridiculous.

[Chris]

ok, i felt like i owed you guys some numbers, so i just went and tallied these:

The 9 game stretch in Jan where KG was out, the celtic scored a total of 139 fast break points (according to nba.com) for an average of 15.4 per game.

Now i know that Sheed "started" for KG in that stretch but we all know BBD played a ton of minutes, and Sheed was just hanging out by the 3 point line in transition.

Can anyone find the season average per game for the C's to compare?  if the numbers prove me wrong then i will happily admit it.

I really don't see how that comparison would show anything though.  There are WAY too many variable, not the least of which is the play of Rondo, who has often picked up his game when KG has been out.

Does that mean KG should be benched to get the most out of Rondo?  JK

i agree that there are nunerous variables (opponents, how many break away layups TA misses, etc.) but i don't know how else to quantify it.  This just seems like a simple high level view to either say we fast break more or less when KG is out. 

I honestly don't know the answer, i've been looking...

Well, you can certainly quantify whether we fast break more or less when KG is out.  That is easy (if you want to put in the time), but to then twist that into having anything to do with Davis is pretty darn close to impossible. 

It is like finding a correlation between driving a big rig, and cancer, and then trying to say because of that correlation, you think fast food causes cancer.  It just doesn't work that way.

[blake]

Your premise would then bring up the question...Do we want to be a fast break team?  I would have to say no.  Based on the numbers and the past champions, you want to be an average fast break team and a great defensive team.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/opponent-points-per-game

[muddy02]

The numbers don't support you. Over the course of the season we're better offensively and defensively with KG on the court instead of BBD. We're even a better rebounding team with KG as he's a much better defensive rebounder.

BBD's energy and hustle is very useful to the team, but it isn't always productive hustle. KG still needs to start and play the most minutes of our big men.

Thank you for putting this in a much friendlier manner than I would have.  The numbers are in fact grossly different, not just a bit.

Despite knowing that a silly thread like this would be posted today, I'm still caught off guard by it b/c it is so ridiculous.

wow you'd think i called for Garnett's head on a plate or something...

The only reason i brought this up is because everytime Rondo was pushing the ball up court, there was always BBD up ahead waiting to the feed.  Ray was there too.  I just thought to myself, this could work.  Again, this isn't going to work against the Hawks, or even the Cavs, it just works against a slower team like miami. 

[mmbaby]

Muddy, funny when I saw the title of your post, I just knew what it was going to be about. I've been thinking the same thing. I love KG but maybe.....he's past his time...hurt a little too much. Davis scored more, defended more and was a lot quicker. KG scored 15 in the first playoff game playing as starter. Davis scored 23 as starter in the second game, not to mention the rebounds, steals and assists.
I'm worried we'll go back to the lackluster play that's characterized this whole season. We've found a good chemistry here and I wish to keep it.