Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players

[vinnie]

author=Kiorrik link=topic=36641.msg723291#msg723291 To rub
....it's just that I think every now and then we look at stats a fair bit too much.

Agree with you on this one, Kiorrik.

Well here are more stats for those interested in numbers:

Most Free Throws Attempted by a Small Forward - '09-'10 (Top 5)

Kevin Durant: 771
LeBron James: 763
Carmelo Anthony: 529
Corey Maggette: 529
Gerald Wallace: 514

According to the first post, Paul Pierce is number 2 on the list of most fouls drawn...yet, he does not even figure in the top 5 list of most free throws attempted by a small forward. All I'm trying to say is you can always use/interpret stats to your advantage and to help prove your point.

Stats don't mean a lot....unless you are a marketing company.

Pierce has far fewer field goal attempts then these guys. His percentage of fouls drawn per field goals attempted is almost the same as Lebron's. What don't you get about that? If Pierce had the same number of field goal attempts as Lebron, he would have a similar number of free throws.

Interesting how this thread got hijacked. I was simply posting a stat that I found interesting and not trying to make any major point other than the fact that I don't think Paul Pierce has enough field goal attempts and that he does get to the line quite often.

[Bahku]

In other words, if we see "Lebron James: 1.6 fouls per game" we have to think about what that number means, why it may be that way, what that number may be reflecting.

On the flipside, we could just sit there and say "The rules don't apply to him because it looks like it...and i root for the celtics and i'm watching boston vs. cleveland!)

Okay, please explain why he commits only 1.6 fouls per game despite the fact that he is one of the most physical player we have in the league. I would really like to know...and I mean it..I'm not just saying it for the sake of arguement. I feel he gets called differently (and I know he is not the first player to be called this way). Why is it a tech. foul when one player stand in an opposition's huddle but its not tech. when LBJ does it? Why is a travel not called against him when replays clearly show that he takes 3 steps very frequently?

I don't dislike the man because I'm a Celtics fan...I dislike him for the preferential treatment that he gets from every NBA corner. I have never posted/said anything about his game/skills/ability.

Totally agree, BFM (TP) ... one of my closest colleagues is a LeBron freak, and even he admits that he is judged by a different standard and gets preferential treatment. Even in the game against the C's on Sunday there were multiple times when he was yelling at the refs and using bad language, (stuff that would get anyone else but Kobe and CP3 ejected), and the officials would just smile and wave it off. Whether you're a LeBron fan or not, anyone with their eyes open can tell that he is given a much, much longer leash than anyone else. Are there justifications for it? Of course, and it all has to do with money ... but that does not make it right, or ethical.

[barefacedmonk]

author=Kiorrik link=topic=36641.msg723291#msg723291 To rub
....it's just that I think every now and then we look at stats a fair bit too much.

Agree with you on this one, Kiorrik.

Well here are more stats for those interested in numbers:

Most Free Throws Attempted by a Small Forward - '09-'10 (Top 5)

Kevin Durant: 771
LeBron James: 763
Carmelo Anthony: 529
Corey Maggette: 529
Gerald Wallace: 514

According to the first post, Paul Pierce is number 2 on the list of most fouls drawn...yet, he does not even figure in the top 5 list of most free throws attempted by a small forward. All I'm trying to say is you can always use/interpret stats to your advantage and to help prove your point.

Stats don't mean a lot....unless you are a marketing company.

Pierce has far fewer field goal attempts then these guys. His percentage of fouls drawn per field goals attempted is almost the same as Lebron's. What don't you get about that? If Pierce had the same number of field goal attempts as Lebron, he would have a similar number of free throws.

I already stated that I mis-interpreted your post and accepted that it was a mistake. BTW, I know you'd said that you want nothing to do with me or my posts...so, you'll pls. pardon me if ignore you.

[action781]

Someone here on the blog said " You can always find a stat to prove your point"...or something like that. I think thats a good point.

I disagree. There's no stat to prove that the Timberwolves are a good team or that Adam Morrison was a great rookie!

It was me who said that.

And Adam Morrison was the 3rd highest scorer among rookies in the 2006-07 season.  The player before him to do that was Deron Williams.

Minnesota is ranked 3rd in the NBA in turnover differential per game.  Orlando, Cleveland, and SA rank behind them at 5th, 6th, and 7th.

 

[barefacedmonk]

Someone here on the blog said " You can always find a stat to prove your point"...or something like that. I think thats a good point.

I disagree. There's no stat to prove that the Timberwolves are a good team or that Adam Morrison was a great rookie!

It was me who said that.

And Adam Morrison was the 3rd highest scorer among rookies in the 2006-07 season.  The player before him to do that was Deron Williams.

Minnesota is ranked 3rd in the NBA in turnover differential per game.  Orlando, Cleveland, and SA rank behind them at 5th, 6th, and 7th.

 

Lol...nice. TP.

[MattG12]

My statistics professor told my class not to believe in statistics.

Whoever provides the stats... always biased... they always have a point and they're not going to show both sides... and if they do, they're not doing their jobs.

Stats can be skewed however you want.

That having been said, there are some stats you can't refute.
(Cal Ripken Jr. is the most durable baseball player of all time with 2,632 consecutive games played.)

[MattG12]

Someone here on the blog said " You can always find a stat to prove your point"...or something like that. I think thats a good point.

I disagree. There's no stat to prove that the Timberwolves are a good team or that Adam Morrison was a great rookie!

It was me who said that.

And Adam Morrison was the 3rd highest scorer among rookies in the 2006-07 season.  The player before him to do that was Deron Williams.

Minnesota is ranked 3rd in the NBA in turnover differential per game.  Orlando, Cleveland, and SA rank behind them at 5th, 6th, and 7th.

 

exactly... TP

[action781]

My statistics professor told my class not to believe in statistics.

Whoever provides the stats... always biased... they always have a point and they're not going to show both sides... and if they do, they're not doing their jobs.

Stats can be skewed however you want.

That having been said, there are some stats you can't refute.
(Cal Ripken Jr. is the most durable baseball player of all time with 2,632 consecutive games played.)

HAHA, love it.  I'm a mathematician so definitely have an appreciation for that.  All should beware that graphs can be misinterpreted in the same fashion very easily.

I agree with that point and live by it very much.  I know this will spark some controversy (which I'll just start then abandon), but it's a big reason why I don't put much stock into all the talk about Global Warning (i.e. Global temperature fluctuation)

[guava_wrench]

My statistics professor told my class not to believe in statistics.

Whoever provides the stats... always biased... they always have a point and they're not going to show both sides... and if they do, they're not doing their jobs.

Stats can be skewed however you want.

That having been said, there are some stats you can't refute.
(Cal Ripken Jr. is the most durable baseball player of all time with 2,632 consecutive games played.)

HAHA, love it.  I'm a mathematician so definitely have an appreciation for that.  All should beware that graphs can be misinterpreted in the same fashion very easily.

I agree with that point and live by it very much.  I know this will spark some controversy (which I'll just start then abandon), but it's a big reason why I don't put much stock into all the talk about Global Warning (i.e. Global temperature fluctuation)

That's why you are a mathematician and not a climate scientist.

[jdpapa3]

Someone here on the blog said " You can always find a stat to prove your point"...or something like that. I think thats a good point.

I disagree. There's no stat to prove that the Timberwolves are a good team or that Adam Morrison was a great rookie!

It was me who said that.

And Adam Morrison was the 3rd highest scorer among rookies in the 2006-07 season.  The player before him to do that was Deron Williams.

Minnesota is ranked 3rd in the NBA in turnover differential per game.  Orlando, Cleveland, and SA rank behind them at 5th, 6th, and 7th.

 

LOL. I knew someone would take the bait. Now, be honest, how long did you sit hunched over your computer looking for something tangible on the Wolves?

[MattG12]

Someone here on the blog said " You can always find a stat to prove your point"...or something like that. I think thats a good point.

I disagree. There's no stat to prove that the Timberwolves are a good team or that Adam Morrison was a great rookie!

It was me who said that.

And Adam Morrison was the 3rd highest scorer among rookies in the 2006-07 season.  The player before him to do that was Deron Williams.

Minnesota is ranked 3rd in the NBA in turnover differential per game.  Orlando, Cleveland, and SA rank behind them at 5th, 6th, and 7th.

 

LOL. I knew someone would take the bait. Now, be honest, how long did you sit hunched over your computer looking for something tangible on the Wolves?

It doesn't matter how long it took to find the stats... the point is, there is an argument going on about whether stats are always useful or not, and he just proved that they are not because they lie.

[Drucci]

Very interesting stats but, frankly, I still have a hard time believing Paul comes second behind LeBron, I thought he would be in the deep end of the ranking... especially with the way the refs have treated him this year.

[Fan from VT]

Someone here on the blog said " You can always find a stat to prove your point"...or something like that. I think thats a good point.

I disagree. There's no stat to prove that the Timberwolves are a good team or that Adam Morrison was a great rookie!

It was me who said that.

And Adam Morrison was the 3rd highest scorer among rookies in the 2006-07 season.  The player before him to do that was Deron Williams.

Minnesota is ranked 3rd in the NBA in turnover differential per game.  Orlando, Cleveland, and SA rank behind them at 5th, 6th, and 7th.

 

LOL. I knew someone would take the bait. Now, be honest, how long did you sit hunched over your computer looking for something tangible on the Wolves?

It doesn't matter how long it took to find the stats... the point is, there is an argument going on about whether stats are always useful or not, and he just proved that they are not because they lie.

How did he prove stats lie?

I really don't get this.

I know one person who got in a car crash and would have died if they hadn't been thrown through the windshield. There, I proved with stats that seatbelts are useless.


There's a huge difference between NUMBERS and STATS. The previous poster threw out some NUMBERS that are commonly considered "good" or "bad." That's NOT statistics.

Statistics is tying independently observable measurements to specific outcomes.

For example, if you could show that, over the last twenty years, the third highest scoring rookie, INDEPENDENT of all other variables (shooting percentage, etc.), ended up being a good player (by some other measure), then yes, THAT would be evidence that Morrison should have been expected to become a good player. However, I don't think you will find that; I believe you will find there are OTHER indicators that more strongly correlate that have a history of usage and repeatable outcomes/repeated history of reasonable predictive value.
Same for turnover differential. If you compared turnover differential to win-loss record over the years, and found that it alone AND MORE STRONGLY THAN ANY OTHER MEASURE, tightly correlated with win-loss record, then you could reasonably conclude that Minnesota had an "unlucky" year, and was actually a good team, and would have a good record next year.

But that's not the case either. There is demonstrable history that the best predictor of a team's future record is their point differential. How teams GET to that point differential is quite varied and random: the C's have lots of turnovers and very good defense, etc.

Without the body of evidence and the history of proof correlation, numbers are NOT stats, they're just numbers. But just because random NUMBERS don't tell you much about what's going on (which seems obvious to me), doesn't mean there's not a huge value for statistical analysis.

[BballTim]

My statistics professor told my class not to believe in statistics.

Whoever provides the stats... always biased... they always have a point and they're not going to show both sides... and if they do, they're not doing their jobs.

Stats can be skewed however you want.

That having been said, there are some stats you can't refute.
(Cal Ripken Jr. is the most durable baseball player of all time with 2,632 consecutive games played.)

  With a lot of these stats, though, it's not always bias, but there's generally a lack of granularity. Most of the shots that draw fouls probably aren't jump shots. So the number of inside shots is probably more valuable in this discussion than the total number of shots. But even then, LeBron probably gets more uncontested fast break shots than Pierce, so those would have to be taken out.

[BballTim]

Someone here on the blog said " You can always find a stat to prove your point"...or something like that. I think thats a good point.

I disagree. There's no stat to prove that the Timberwolves are a good team or that Adam Morrison was a great rookie!

It was me who said that.

And Adam Morrison was the 3rd highest scorer among rookies in the 2006-07 season.  The player before him to do that was Deron Williams.

Minnesota is ranked 3rd in the NBA in turnover differential per game.  Orlando, Cleveland, and SA rank behind them at 5th, 6th, and 7th.

 

LOL. I knew someone would take the bait. Now, be honest, how long did you sit hunched over your computer looking for something tangible on the Wolves?

It doesn't matter how long it took to find the stats... the point is, there is an argument going on about whether stats are always useful or not, and he just proved that they are not because they lie.

  Stats don't lie, they can just be misused or misenterpreted. Minny does something, either taking care of the ball or generating a lot of turnovers (or both) to get to be 3rd in the league in turnover differential. And they really *are* 3rd (assuming you're right) so the stat doesn't lie. But claiming the stat shows that Minny is a good team would be misusing the stat, or possibly misinterpreting what it means or how big an effect it has on the game.