C's flaws aren't going to just disappear

[yoursweatersux]

Like many of the other dedicated fans on this forum, I've been telling myself for quite some time that if the C's could simply get healthy and string together a few wins they'd be right back in championship contention.

I've decided to cut myself off from the kool-aid before I wake up with a 1st-round-exit hangover.

The issues that have kept cropping up all season CONTINUE to persist, and they're just not going to disappear, no matter how much we cross our fingers and hope otherwise.

-Our rebounding sucks. Especially our offensive rebounding. I know, I know, part of our strategy is to not go after offensive rebounds so we can run back and set the defense. Well you know what? Maybe that strategy sucks and needs to be changed. We're 30th in the league for offensive rebounds, for god's sake.

-Our offense is awful. We've always had an issue with turnovers, but now we can't even seem to put the ball in the hoop. We've got guys like Rasheed (taking ill-advised 3's) and Davis (can't finish around the rim for his life) dragging our fg% down. It seems like we can't score a bucket unless some creative passing creates a layup for somebody. We're already 2nd in the league in assists, so is passing the ball more, like Doc preaches, really the answer? I seem to remember some of our best offense during the 07-08 season being when the Big 3 would take turns being selfish when they got hot. I've seen too many guys passing when they have layups.


Honestly I don't know who's to blame for our offense: Doc, our players, or both. Doc certainly hasn't been an offensive mastermind; I don't think anybody here would contest that. But how are you supposed to work with guys like Glen Davis, who's only discernible skill is the ability to hit a long 2-point jumper when he's completely unguarded (honestly, half of the people on this forum could perform the same function).


I'm not trying to start a complaint thread though, so I guess my question is this: what could we do now to fix our problems? Also, if we could re-do the season, what would you have done differently?

[LB3533]

It's very easy to say our offense is awful when we can't make open shots.

Then again, it is very easy to defend us when opponents leave Rondo and Sheed open for perimeter jumpers.

When Rondo is not aggressive on offense it breeds the same temperament throughout the whole offense, like a trickle down effect.

The biggest concern is our rebounding because we got stops and could not for the life of us get those defensive rebounds.

[CoachBo]

Tough question to answer. I'd lean toward a need for more athletic bench players, because if there's one thing that's apparent EVERY night this team takes the floor, it's how comparatively unathletic it is.

The most disconcerting thing tonight was the total lack of effort from the white jersies, in a game that was important for playoff seeding. There will be the usual litany of excuses on this board, and people will continue to claim that single games are meaningless, but that's just a cheap rationalization. Ten games left in a season and playoff seeding on the line - with a clear demarcation between third and fourth - and such alibis are just disingenuous.

[yoursweatersux]

Tough question to answer. I'd lean toward a need for more athletic bench players, because if there's one thing that's apparent EVERY night this team takes the floor, it's how comparatively unathletic it is.

The most disconcerting thing tonight was the total lack of effort from the white jersies, in a game that was important for playoff seeding. There will be the usual litany of excuses on this board, and people will continue to claim that single games are meaningless, but that's just a cheap rationalization. Ten games left in a season and playoff seeding on the line - with a clear demarcation between third and fourth - and such alibis are just disingenuous.

I couldn't agree more about the excuses. There's a fine line between wishful thinking and blatant self-deception. The fact is, these games last few games are huge for us for a variety of reasons, the most important of which is the fact that we MUST get some momentum before playoffs start.

As far as our bench is concerned, I'd say that the signing of Sheed and the re-signing of Davis was essentially our downfall on that front. It's definitely a personnel issue. And honestly I'd play Shelden Williams over Davis any day of the week... it's a shame he doesn't get any minutes.

But for our starters there shouldn't be any issues... if anything these guys should be playing more effectively and cohesively now that they've had time to play together for a few years. I haven't really criticized Doc on here before, but I'm starting to wonder just what exactly he's doing out there.

[GreenFaith1819]

Well, as disappointing as tonight's game was, I still love the upswing over the last few weeks.

We'll get back on track.

Besides, we beat S.A. earlier, so it's all good.

[CoachBo]

I was dead wrong about the signing of Wallace. Didn't expect the total lack of effort from him on both ends of the floor.

And I've been criticized on this board before for my lack of Davis love - but the guy is an absolute liability at the rim. Always has been, always will be.

To tell you the truth, I don't recall - and it doesn't matter now - what the options were last summer, but clearly we should have been a little less covetous of "experience." Danny always clings tightly to his draft picks, so the Davis resigning didn't surprise me. No one else would give him the deal he wanted.

I don't know that this team loses in the first round, but these kind of hopelessly ambivalent performances in key games may bring Cleveland in the second round, and all I'll add is God bless anyone who's optimistic about that matchup.

[yoursweatersux]

Well, as disappointing as tonight's game was, I still love the upswing over the last few weeks.

We'll get back on track.

Besides, we beat S.A. earlier, so it's all good.

I really want to be able to say that. But we beat a slumping Nuggets team without Kenyon Martin and a bunch of other so-so teams. We haven't pulled out a convincing win against a quality team in a while.

We got 20-pieced by a Spurs team missing Tony Parker and in which Tim Duncan scored only 8 points!!

[GreenFaith1819]

Well, as disappointing as tonight's game was, I still love the upswing over the last few weeks.

We'll get back on track.

Besides, we beat S.A. earlier, so it's all good.

I really want to be able to say that. But we beat a slumping Nuggets team without Kenyon Martin and a bunch of other so-so teams. We haven't pulled out a convincing win against a quality team in a while.

We got 20-pieced by a Spurs team missing Tony Parker and in which Tim Duncan scored only 8 points!!

And we were missing Perk.

[nickagneta]

I said it in the game thread and will repeat it here. Doc got beat before the game started. The switch of Hill on Ray and Manu on Rondo and Manu playing 10 feet off Rondo was a game winner before the game tipped off. Doc never adjusted offensively.

No 1-3 foul line extended switches.

No high post screens by his center or Pf for pick and rolls or pick and pops making Manu work defensively.

Instead, Doc continued to have Pierce initiate the offense or try to run Ray around multiple low post screens while Rondo pounded the ball up top and waited for Ray to try to free himself from one of the best defensive guards in the league in George Hill.

The offense stagnated. Rondo was taken completely out of his game and the Celtics offense, once taken out of their flow, could never get it back. Because of that they fell into their same old trap of trying to 3 point shoot their way back into the game and went 1-15 or something like that.

C's need Doc to adjust faster. C's need to stop relying on three point shooting to bring them back and the C's need to rebound on the defensive end like animals. Do that and anything is possible. Don't and anything bad(like a first round ouster) is also possible.

[PosImpos]

It's been the same story all season:

1) Poor rebounding - in part because our bigs don't block out and in part because our team has a general lack of athleticism.

2) Lack of interior scoring.  Our most reliable scorer within 5 feet is Perk, and he can't succeed on offense unless everybody else is hitting shots so he is left open.  He can't score 1 on 1.  KG is now primarily a mid-range jumpshooter and Rasheed...well, Rasheed is different things on different nights but in general he's not reliable from anywhere.  Davis is too stumpy to finish around the rim in traffic consistently, especially when the defense pays attention to him.  Shelden Williams is just not a good offensive player.

3) Inconsistent outside shooters.  There are games (like this one) when all of our shooters go cold and we can't hit anything from beyond the arc.  The C's almost always lose those games, especially against decent teams. Unlike Orlando, the Celtics don't have the best rebounder and put-back-er in the league to help them out when the outside shots aren't falling.

4) Lack of bench offense - nobody on the bench can create their own shot.  Thought Nate would be an improvement but he hasn't been.

5) Inconsistent slashers.  At times, Rondo takes over games with his ability to drive to the hoop.  Occasionally, Paul Pierce does the same.  Indeed, even Ray Allen gets in on that action sometimes.  We've seen Marquis Daniels have some good games cutting to the rack, as well as TA.  But we've also seen far too many games - important games against good opponents - where most or all of those players disappear in that regard.  I don't think I've seen a game yet where Rondo is able to drive the lane for the whole game even when the opposing defense starts trying to clamp down; in fact, as soon as the defense game-plans for Rondo, he seems to stop scoring.  Paul Pierce used to be our main option for driving the lane, and he could do it very well, but this year with the decline in his speed, athleticism, and overall game he's become more and more an outside player and those cuts to the rack have become rarer.

6) No superstar.  When things get tough, when the opposing defense really clamps down, when the offensive sets aren't working, the Celtics really need somebody who can just step up and take over the game - somebody who can will the team to victory.  The Miami Heat are not a very good team but they're still managing 40 wins and are heating up late in the season because they have a player who wins them games on his own.  The Lakers have won quite a few close games this season because Kobe takes over late in the fourth when the rest of the team fades.  LeBron is a one man team.  When everything goes right, it is possible for a team of great players without a superstar to play very good team basketball and win when it matters.  It happened for Detroit in '04, and we saw it happen for us in Boston in '08.  I just don't believe the '10 Celtics are that kind of team.  Indeed, there really isn't a team in the league like that this year, in my opinion.  In June, a superstar will hoist the trophy.

The bottom line is when the outside shots don't fall, this team has a really hard time scoring in the paint; it's that inability to score inside or make up for the low fg% with aggressive rebounding that will ultimately spell their defeat in the playoffs.  Right now the Celtics are a better, more experienced version of teams like Portland, Chicago, OKC, Charlotte etc who all play very well for stretches but fail to play great consistently because of their lack of an inside presence.  There's a reason LA, Cleveland, and Orlando are the 3 best teams in the league - they have superstars, and they have great interior guys.

[barefacedmonk]

I said it in the game thread and will repeat it here. Doc got beat before the game started. The switch of Hill on Ray and Manu on Rondo and Manu playing 10 feet off Rondo was a game winner before the game tipped off. Doc never adjusted offensively.

No 1-3 foul line extended switches.

No high post screens by his center or Pf for pick and rolls or pick and pops making Manu work defensively.

Instead, Doc continued to have Pierce initiate the offense or try to run Ray around multiple low post screens while Rondo pounded the ball up top and waited for Ray to try to free himself from one of the best defensive guards in the league in George Hill.

The offense stagnated. Rondo was taken completely out of his game and the Celtics offense, once taken out of their flow, could never get it back. Because of that they fell into their same old trap of trying to 3 point shoot their way back into the game and went 1-15 or something like that.

C's need Doc to adjust faster. C's need to stop relying on three point shooting to bring them back and the C's need to rebound on the defensive end like animals. Do that and anything is possible. Don't and anything bad(like a first round ouster) is also possible.

Pretty good analysis, Nick. TP. We go as Rondo goes...and tonight, Rondo didn't want to go anywhere.

[LB3533]

I said it in the game thread and will repeat it here. Doc got beat before the game started. The switch of Hill on Ray and Manu on Rondo and Manu playing 10 feet off Rondo was a game winner before the game tipped off. Doc never adjusted offensively.

No 1-3 foul line extended switches.

No high post screens by his center or Pf for pick and rolls or pick and pops making Manu work defensively.

Instead, Doc continued to have Pierce initiate the offense or try to run Ray around multiple low post screens while Rondo pounded the ball up top and waited for Ray to try to free himself from one of the best defensive guards in the league in George Hill.

The offense stagnated. Rondo was taken completely out of his game and the Celtics offense, once taken out of their flow, could never get it back. Because of that they fell into their same old trap of trying to 3 point shoot their way back into the game and went 1-15 or something like that.

C's need Doc to adjust faster. C's need to stop relying on three point shooting to bring them back and the C's need to rebound on the defensive end like animals. Do that and anything is possible. Don't and anything bad(like a first round ouster) is also possible.

I thought the game was lost when Doc went to the "full 5 second unit" on the 2nd quarter....Pop had Manu + Jefferson and the Spurs took the lead...stretched it to double figures by the time Duncan got on the floor again.

We lost our momentum going into the half.

Our nightmare 3rd quarter reared it's ugly head again.

[nickagneta]

I said it in the game thread and will repeat it here. Doc got beat before the game started. The switch of Hill on Ray and Manu on Rondo and Manu playing 10 feet off Rondo was a game winner before the game tipped off. Doc never adjusted offensively.

No 1-3 foul line extended switches.

No high post screens by his center or Pf for pick and rolls or pick and pops making Manu work defensively.

Instead, Doc continued to have Pierce initiate the offense or try to run Ray around multiple low post screens while Rondo pounded the ball up top and waited for Ray to try to free himself from one of the best defensive guards in the league in George Hill.

The offense stagnated. Rondo was taken completely out of his game and the Celtics offense, once taken out of their flow, could never get it back. Because of that they fell into their same old trap of trying to 3 point shoot their way back into the game and went 1-15 or something like that.

C's need Doc to adjust faster. C's need to stop relying on three point shooting to bring them back and the C's need to rebound on the defensive end like animals. Do that and anything is possible. Don't and anything bad(like a first round ouster) is also possible.

I thought the game was lost when Doc went to the "full 5 second unit" on the 2nd quarter....Pop had Manu + Jefferson and the Spurs took the lead...stretched it to double figures by the time Duncan got on the floor again.

We lost our momentum going into the half.

Our nightmare 3rd quarter reared it's ugly head again.

That was the mid second quarter and the team came back with a 13-4 run to close within 1. Ultimately that 5 man second team didn't do that much damage. They came in to start the 2nd quarter with a 4 point lead. In the first 8 seconds it was a one point lead due to an old fashioned Manu 3 point play. When the starters came back in at the 7 minute mark SA was only leading by 2.

The starters let SA cruise to the 10 point second quarter lead and then got it back. It was also the starters that allowed most of the damage in the third quarter. This was not a 5 man substitution problem in this game, it was a lack of adjusting to what the SA defense was doing. That was the problem.

[FallGuy]

But how are you supposed to work with guys like Glen Davis, who's only discernible skill is the ability to hit a long 2-point jumper when he's completely unguarded (honestly, half of the people on this forum could perform the same function).

I can hit that jumper. I'll take his job - AND I'll eat myself up to his playing weight before I do.

[Q_FBE]

My only solution is to replace the coach. The players do not respond to the coach at all. Really we haven't had a bench since Posey left us and replacing Powe with Rasheed Wallace was a mistake. Marquis Daniels has had a poor season but you could say that about anyone on this team.

That is lack of coaching.