An attempt at a realistic explanation

[barefacedmonk]

Good post, PLamb. TP.

If Danny really needs to make some changes in the offseason then he should start with Doc. I mean, its easier to fire one person than a few at once. That said, I'm part of the tiny minority that feels this team and the coach should be given one more year. Sign some players to help the team.....but don't blow it up. Atleast not for another year (I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for saying that).

This team should only be blown up if their failure to compete continues into the playoffs and they get knocked off by the Heat or somebody.  I don't see any reason to bring Ray back just so next year's team can be as unpleasant to watch as this year's (even though Ray is the least of this team's problems).

Mike

Ray will be great coming off the bench next year. I would love to have him back.

[PLamb]

Good post, PLamb. TP.

If Danny really needs to make some changes in the offseason then he should start with Doc. I mean, its easier to fire one person than a few at once. That said, I'm part of the tiny minority that feels this team and the coach should be given one more year. Sign some players to help the team.....but don't blow it up. Atleast not for another year (I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for saying that).

This team should only be blown up if their failure to compete continues into the playoffs and they get knocked off by the Heat or somebody.  I don't see any reason to bring Ray back just so next year's team can be as unpleasant to watch as this year's (even though Ray is the least of this team's problems).

Mike

Ray will be great coming off the bench next year. I would love to have him back.

In your scenario, if Ray gets in a resigned deal what many think he will and Rasheed isn't traded away, the Celtics could possibly have $14 million or more tied up in two bench players

Not exactly a recipe for success

[BballTim]

Good post, PLamb. TP.

If Danny really needs to make some changes in the offseason then he should start with Doc. I mean, its easier to fire one person than a few at once. That said, I'm part of the tiny minority that feels this team and the coach should be given one more year. Sign some players to help the team.....but don't blow it up. Atleast not for another year (I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for saying that).

This team should only be blown up if their failure to compete continues into the playoffs and they get knocked off by the Heat or somebody.  I don't see any reason to bring Ray back just so next year's team can be as unpleasant to watch as this year's (even though Ray is the least of this team's problems).

Mike

Ray will be great coming off the bench next year. I would love to have him back.

In your scenario, if Ray gets in a resigned deal what many think he will and Rasheed isn't traded away, the Celtics could possibly have $14 million or more tied up in two bench players

Not exactly a recipe for success

  I don't think that's an issue in the last year or two of the contender. It's also true that we'd be spending significantly less money on the sg position than we are now.

[barefacedmonk]

Good post, PLamb. TP.

If Danny really needs to make some changes in the offseason then he should start with Doc. I mean, its easier to fire one person than a few at once. That said, I'm part of the tiny minority that feels this team and the coach should be given one more year. Sign some players to help the team.....but don't blow it up. Atleast not for another year (I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for saying that).

This team should only be blown up if their failure to compete continues into the playoffs and they get knocked off by the Heat or somebody.  I don't see any reason to bring Ray back just so next year's team can be as unpleasant to watch as this year's (even though Ray is the least of this team's problems).

Mike

Ray will be great coming off the bench next year. I would love to have him back.

In your scenario, if Ray gets in a resigned deal what many think he will and Rasheed isn't traded away, the Celtics could possibly have $14 million or more tied up in two bench players

Not exactly a recipe for success

Ray wants to stay here...and I think he will do whatever it takes to make that happen. He has earned a lot in his career, his family is settled here and he said it himself that he doesn't want to move out of Boston.

[Q_FBE]

With Plambs post, Why do I need to post here. That was fantastic and I read it three times.

I did not watch or listen or check in with the chat room the last three days as I have been on the move.

Reality has set in that this team is really dead in the water and the switch is apparently broken. This team needs a mental overhaul and then it probably is not near enough to do get this team to compete at the highest level. The fault lies with everyone here (in the Celtics camp).

The 23 and 5 start looks like an illusion now. I saw bad signs with that 1st Atlanta game where we were outworked on National TV. A couple of knee injuries later, we have been reduced to mediocrity. With the playoffs starting in a month, I will provide lip service support for the playoffs just for the tradition of watching Celtics playoff games and look forward to a coach replacement and massive trade talk after the season.

[Eddie20]

* Injuries (be it KG, Pierce, Davis, Daniels) and the additions of Nate and Finely has not allowed our team to pratice and/or play that often together.

* Ball movement. Our offense has basically become a 1/4 type offense where it's primarily in Rondo's hands for the majority of the possession and he is called to make a play for  himself or teammates. The ball movement has really decreased and that's what made our offense so good the past couple of seasons. Would like to see more high pick and rolls with PP or RA handling the ball and having Rondo float along the baseline (preventing a double on the screen and roll) which we saw much more frequently.

* Defense. Here it starts with Rondo gambling way too often and forcing the bigs to rotate and defend the basket. The problem is that KG has lost a step and can no longer defend the basket like he used to. These rotations often force our players out of position and we don't have the athleticism to recover.

* Intensity. Comes and goes in spurts and it's clear that in most games we just don't want it as bad as our opponents. This is evident on loose balls, boxing out, and a lot of other hustle plays that don't show up in the box score.

[barefacedmonk]

Good post, PLamb. TP.

If Danny really needs to make some changes in the offseason then he should start with Doc. I mean, its easier to fire one person than a few at once. That said, I'm part of the tiny minority that feels this team and the coach should be given one more year. Sign some players to help the team.....but don't blow it up. Atleast not for another year (I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for saying that).

This team should only be blown up if their failure to compete continues into the playoffs and they get knocked off by the Heat or somebody.  I don't see any reason to bring Ray back just so next year's team can be as unpleasant to watch as this year's (even though Ray is the least of this team's problems).

Mike

Ray will be great coming off the bench next year. I would love to have him back.

In your scenario, if Ray gets in a resigned deal what many think he will and Rasheed isn't traded away, the Celtics could possibly have $14 million or more tied up in two bench players

Not exactly a recipe for success

Ray wants to stay here...and I think he will do whatever it takes to make that happen. He has earned a lot in his career, his family is settled here and he said it himself that he doesn't want to move out of Boston. Money will not be an issue for him....I think the number of years in the contract might be.

[PLamb]

I hate to sound unappreciative of what Ray has done for the last three years but, I could care less what Ray Allen wants

I want what is best for the Celtics

If that just so happens to be the best thing for the Celtics, that's great, but I honestly don't think Danny Ainge believes that which is why I think he won't be back unless it is at an extremely favorable discount and for one year(team option on a second year would also fit this scenario)

I'll tell you what, Danny might feel more comfortable throwing MLE money at Mike Miller or Rasual Butler in a two year with an option third year than he would Ray Allen for for than MLE money.

He might also trade for someone to fill that spot.

Most likely Ray will return, but it won't be to sit on the bench, he'll be starting.

[More Banners]

* Injuries (be it KG, Pierce, Davis, Daniels) and the additions of Nate and Finely has not allowed our team to pratice and/or play that often together.

* Ball movement. Our offense has basically become a 1/4 type offense where it's primarily in Rondo's hands for the majority of the possession and he is called to make a play for  himself or teammates. The ball movement has really decreased and that's what made our offense so good the past couple of seasons. Would like to see more high pick and rolls with PP or RA handling the ball and having Rondo float along the baseline (preventing a double on the screen and roll) which we saw much more frequently.

* Defense. Here it starts with Rondo gambling way too often and forcing the bigs to rotate and defend the basket. The problem is that KG has lost a step and can no longer defend the basket like he used to. These rotations often force our players out of position and we don't have the athleticism to recover.

* Intensity. Comes and goes in spurts and it's clear that in most games we just don't want it as bad as our opponents. This is evident on loose balls, boxing out, and a lot of other hustle plays that don't show up in the box score.

Nice, concise, explanation.  Not sure the team as constructed has the ponies to do things much differently, though.

[the_Bird]

* Injuries (be it KG, Pierce, Davis, Daniels) and the additions of Nate and Finely has not allowed our team to pratice and/or play that often together.

* Ball movement. Our offense has basically become a 1/4 type offense where it's primarily in Rondo's hands for the majority of the possession and he is called to make a play for  himself or teammates. The ball movement has really decreased and that's what made our offense so good the past couple of seasons. Would like to see more high pick and rolls with PP or RA handling the ball and having Rondo float along the baseline (preventing a double on the screen and roll) which we saw much more frequently.

* Defense. Here it starts with Rondo gambling way too often and forcing the bigs to rotate and defend the basket. The problem is that KG has lost a step and can no longer defend the basket like he used to. These rotations often force our players out of position and we don't have the athleticism to recover.

* Intensity. Comes and goes in spurts and it's clear that in most games we just don't want it as bad as our opponents. This is evident on loose balls, boxing out, and a lot of other hustle plays that don't show up in the box score.

Nice, concise, explanation.  Not sure the team as constructed has the ponies to do things much differently, though.

Three of those issues tie back to the guy who just signed the $50M extension.  The ball sticks to Rondo's hands on offense a lot more.  Is this because there's less off-the-ball movement, or is there less off-the-ball movement because Rondo's playing more like a Starbury-type PG?  The crappy defense is getting ridiculous; I'm so sick of seeing opposing guards get into the lane at will. 

The effort, night-in, night-out?  We know that's always been an issue with Rondo.

So the question becomes....   did they make a mistake in deciding that Rondo was *the guy* to rebuild around?  Should they at least THINK about a trade, assuming that he could still fetch a young, top 20-type player?

[More Banners]

* Injuries (be it KG, Pierce, Davis, Daniels) and the additions of Nate and Finely has not allowed our team to pratice and/or play that often together.

* Ball movement. Our offense has basically become a 1/4 type offense where it's primarily in Rondo's hands for the majority of the possession and he is called to make a play for  himself or teammates. The ball movement has really decreased and that's what made our offense so good the past couple of seasons. Would like to see more high pick and rolls with PP or RA handling the ball and having Rondo float along the baseline (preventing a double on the screen and roll) which we saw much more frequently.

* Defense. Here it starts with Rondo gambling way too often and forcing the bigs to rotate and defend the basket. The problem is that KG has lost a step and can no longer defend the basket like he used to. These rotations often force our players out of position and we don't have the athleticism to recover.

* Intensity. Comes and goes in spurts and it's clear that in most games we just don't want it as bad as our opponents. This is evident on loose balls, boxing out, and a lot of other hustle plays that don't show up in the box score.

Nice, concise, explanation.  Not sure the team as constructed has the ponies to do things much differently, though.

Three of those issues tie back to the guy who just signed the $50M extension.  The ball sticks to Rondo's hands on offense a lot more.  Is this because there's less off-the-ball movement, or is there less off-the-ball movement because Rondo's playing more like a Starbury-type PG?  The crappy defense is getting ridiculous; I'm so sick of seeing opposing guards get into the lane at will. 

The effort, night-in, night-out?  We know that's always been an issue with Rondo.

So the question becomes....   did they make a mistake in deciding that Rondo was *the guy* to rebuild around?  Should they at least THINK about a trade, assuming that he could still fetch a young, top 20-type player?

I was pretty quick to hold Rondo responsible here, but I don't think the rest of the starters are as sharp as they once were, so I'm not sure the rest of the squad is as capable of the level of ball movement that we saw a couple of years ago, at least on a consistent basis and against better teams.

I don't know if the extension was a "mistake" as much as it was a function of the limited other options.  Some team was going to offer him at least that much this offseason, potentially leaving us with a large roster hole at a hard spot to fill.

[MBunge]

Good post, PLamb. TP.

If Danny really needs to make some changes in the offseason then he should start with Doc. I mean, its easier to fire one person than a few at once. That said, I'm part of the tiny minority that feels this team and the coach should be given one more year. Sign some players to help the team.....but don't blow it up. Atleast not for another year (I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for saying that).

This team should only be blown up if their failure to compete continues into the playoffs and they get knocked off by the Heat or somebody.  I don't see any reason to bring Ray back just so next year's team can be as unpleasant to watch as this year's (even though Ray is the least of this team's problems).

Mike

Ray will be great coming off the bench next year. I would love to have him back.

In your scenario, if Ray gets in a resigned deal what many think he will and Rasheed isn't traded away, the Celtics could possibly have $14 million or more tied up in two bench players

Not exactly a recipe for success

  I don't think that's an issue in the last year or two of the contender. It's also true that we'd be spending significantly less money on the sg position than we are now.

We're not a contender.  This team isn't playing like the Celtics of the declining years of Bird, McHale and DJ.  Those guys continued to bring it almost every night, even when they really weren't contending for the title.  If this team don't show they can do that in the playoffs, I'd rather see Ray let go...if only to slap the rest of the team in the face with the reality of what they've become.

Mike

[PLamb]

We're not a contender.  This team isn't playing like the Celtics of the declining years of Bird, McHale and DJ.  Those guys continued to bring it almost every night, even when they really weren't contending for the title.  If this team don't show they can do that in the playoffs, I'd rather see Ray let go...if only to slap the rest of the team in the face with the reality of what they've become.

Mike

Remember Bird at 34 during that famous Indiana game diving across the floor with a bad back, smashing his face and coming back to drop 30+ and win the game

Or Bird at 35 in that famous 2OT game against Portland, again nursing a horrible bad back

McHale playing all those years with the effects of his broken foot

I just don't get the feeling these guys will play and perform and give the effort we saw from that aging group

[vinnie]

Nice Post, PLamb.

And I think the fact that Doc stated that there will be more practice sessions will help this team as well.

The ship can be righted. And the awesome thing out of all of this is that all will be forgiven if Banner 18 is hoisted in June 2010.

Maybe they should have thought about practicing during the first 65 games of the season. Oh wait, I forgot, the sleep doctor told them to stay in bed late each day, so no time for practice.

[D Dub]

Defensive Rotations.

That is where this team fails each other.  Now, there is the excuse that our new guys haven't quite learned the scheme yet (Nate, Finley) or that the other new guys haven't played enough to dial it yet (Marquis) - but the worst offender, by far, is former 1st team all-nba defender, Rasheed Wallace.

At least KG and Paul have had injuries to point to.  What's your problem, Sheed?

Seriously, his rotations every night look like Gasol & Odom in game 6 of 08'. 

He needs to be held accountable by his teamates and Doc.  Effort, boredom, lack of confidence -- I don't care what it is -- just freakin' rotate on D, and the rest will take care of itself.

Giving up layups in the half court didn't happen in 2008, because the Celtics trusted each other and held each other accountable on defense.  Where is that accountability now?  I see LAZY, and on a nightly basis.  3 passes is all it takes now to find a wide open shot now against the C's. 

Absolutely dispicable that this team, in the last season of it's championship window, can care so little about the very thing that was it's championship cornerstone in 2008. 

Paul, KG & Doc should be ashamed of themselves.  You are this team's leaders, and you're failing the organization right now by allowing this type of effort to occur so regularly.