Doc's ball movement philosophy needs to be put out to pasture

[twinbree]

Next season I wish they would emphasize player movement instead to make defenses work a little harder against us. Standing around waiting for the open man just makes us predictable and easy to defend. Of all our issues this season, the offense is the one area I cannot understand why the starters are struggling so much seeing as how the unit has efficient scorers, a passing PG and decent floor spacing.

If the Big 3 don't get double teamed and everyone is guarded straight up there's no open man to move the ball to and we have to rely on one-on-one moves and take contested jumpers. None of our starters right now are healthy/talented/skilled enough to do that consistently all game.

Moving the ball around in the quest to find the open man adds to the sloppy turnovers - passing up open shots, errant passes, 3 second calls. And waiting for open man to spring free a lot of times forces us to milk a lot of clock then we have to scramble to get something going and turn the ball over.

Honestly I think its more realistic to work on improve offensively to make up for the decline in defense than to try and restore the defense to the championship level.

[mmbaby]

Some really good points, twinbree. Good post.

[PosImpos]

Yeah, you make a good point.  This offensive strategy worked when the Big 3 were all dominant players.  Now that they aren't anymore, it really falls apart.

As I believe was stated by the coaching staff after the latest crushing loss, the core of this team was built to win in '08 - it was constructed on the premise that the Big 3 would be just what their name suggests: "big," dominant NBA stars.  Without that star foundation - even with Rondo's ascension to All-Star level - the team is no longer as well-constructed as it used to be.

[kenmaine]

Good point!
So many open shots passed up to "make the extra pass". Well, when the extra pass is by KG at 12 feet from the basket to Perk underneath, it is just foolish. And it's not just KG- it's the whole team. And now Doc has Nate R doing it.
Here's a thought(obviously not original)- if you're open, just shoot the [dang] ball!
But all we ever hear from Doc is "stops", it's all about stops, blah blah blah. "the offense will take care of itself", blah blah blah.
Well here's my two cents. If your offense consists of four guys hanging back to get back on defense while Perk goes one-on-one underneath, you're not scoring or getting an offensive rebound.
Maybe it's just the simple fact that the big three are not as quick as they used to be and are easier for defenses to stick with?
Very frustrating to watch Rondo pounding the ball and waiting for someone to get open. Hey Rondo- pay no attention to Ray whining about only getting three shots- you take the game over yourself if you have to- and not just for one half.
And since I'm all over the map here, I'd rather see Nate play for 30 minutes and jack up twenty shots than have Rasheed bombing/clanging away. At least with Nate there'll be some movement and life.

[PLamb]

I think the entire premise of this thread, sorry to say, is ridiculous in the fact that there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of Doc's offensive system

Doc's ball movement philosophy is predicated upon player movement

Players moving around screens receiving passes with movement of the screener towards the basket for the ball if covered ball movement back to set up or swing around to another player weak side to catch the defense slow in their rotations

It's the premise of most non-superstar ball hogging offenses around the league

Player movement to create ball movement and open men and mismatches

The problem with this offense has been the LACK of ball movement caused by a LACK of player movement and the ball sticking in players hands as they try to do it all themselves

There is nothing wrong with the system it the players lack of use and dedication to the system that is causing the problem

Players aren't moving enough, not creating enough mismatches and defensive rotation that is slowing down the offense in the half court sets

Sorry guys but you are all 100% wrong

It's not the system that's broke, its the players not running the system that is broke

[BudweiserCeltic]

I've always felt, even in our championship year, that this team lacked a lot of player movement. We have too many stationary people, and even when Ray is moving around, everyone seems to just be standing around staring at him.

I don't know whose fault it is.

[ThaPreacher]

I think the entire premise of this thread, sorry to say, is ridiculous in the fact that there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of Doc's offensive system

Doc's ball movement philosophy is predicated upon player movement

Players moving around screens receiving passes with movement of the screener towards the basket for the ball if covered ball movement back to set up or swing around to another player weak side to catch the defense slow in their rotations

It's the premise of most non-superstar ball hogging offenses around the league

Player movement to create ball movement and open men and mismatches

The problem with this offense has been the LACK of ball movement caused by a LACK of player movement and the ball sticking in players hands as they try to do it all themselves

There is nothing wrong with the system it the players lack of use and dedication to the system that is causing the problem

Players aren't moving enough, not creating enough mismatches and defensive rotation that is slowing down the offense in the half court sets

Sorry guys but you are all 100% wrong

It's not the system that's broke, its the players not running the system that is broke

Bravo, an intelligent post and quite correct.

The tendency of professional players is to attempt to take the opposition one on one and use athleticism and skills to overcome the other team.  This undoubtedly works for a time.
It puts fans in the stands.  It puts up some gaudy stat lines.
However, without ball movement, and player movement it also usually ends in a loss when games count the most.


The question ought to be asked.  Why aren't the players running the offense?  And why isn't Doc handling this?

[Greenbean]

The only time you see people stationary is when they are playing the pick and roll game or the drive and kick game with Rondo. That by the way is the same kind of ball movement that has been absolutely killing us. We havent been able to stop PG penetration and it is leading to great ball movement by other teams.

When we are running our sets to spring Ray I do agree to a certain extent that I dont like all of them. I like to see good spacing on offense and some of those plays they use multiple screeners on the same side of the court which creates a nice overload. However, they never take advantage of that overload by just sticking a shooter in the opposite corner like they used to with Posey. Instead you get Ray coming off the screens and driving right back into the muddled mess of screens that he just ran around.

I dont know what it is either, the coach or the execution but I do know they are not getting good looks in many sets that they are running and that should be part of the change Doc is referring to.

[chelsearules]

Doc's ball movement philosophy is predicated upon player movement

no its not... only plays for ray use player movement... they wait for defensive breakdowns not screens to get open ... result is stagnant offense and everyone from big baby to rondo taking fadeaways like they're wilt
the offense sucks always has pp and kg were just too good before

[hpantazo]

Any offense that results in Perkins posting up and throwing up laser hooks and line drive fadeaways in crunch time, followed by Pierce driving into traffic and throwing his arms up while he loses the ball, mixed in with a Rondo airball floater or buzzer beating three point brick just sucks, period. I don't know or care who's fault it is, they are all responsible, including Doc. This team has too many weapons to have scoring problems, it shouldn't happen. I think a main part of it is that the offense and defense are both too complicated. The old celtics teams used to run 3-4 plays on offense all game. How complicated can the plays be if Doc thinks there is no way that Nate can learn them all well enough by the time the playoffs start? I think simplifying the offense would be best at this point. This problem is compounded by many of our guys thinking that they have high basketball IQ and complicating plays even further by changing them on the fly all the time, as stated by Doc on many occasions, and indicated by some of the player interviews, especially Sheed who often says they have too much basketball knowledge on this team to worry.

Time to simplify the offense, and things will work out.

[Bahku]

I really don't think he's reached that age yet, but when he does, that's something for him and his urologist to decide.

(Sorry ... couldn't resist).

[EJPLAYA]

I'll be honest, I really am not sure that we have an offense at all. I watch other teams against us and there are specific things they are doing to get their best players "their" shot. There is an apparent offense that is being run. Our offense seems to be go and stand in a spot and wait for Rondo to either create off the dribble and beat his man to the basket, or drop it in the low post to Perk or PP. Then everyone stands and watches. I see a definite defense on this team. It is clear there is a method to the rotations that is supposed to be happening. I just don't see an offense, unless pick up ball style offense is considered one.

[liam]

I'll be honest, I really am not sure that we have an offense at all. I watch other teams against us and there are specific things they are doing to get their best players "their" shot. There is an apparent offense that is being run. Our offense seems to be go and stand in a spot and wait for Rondo to either create off the dribble and beat his man to the basket, or drop it in the low post to Perk or PP. Then everyone stands and watches. I see a definite defense on this team. It is clear there is a method to the rotations that is supposed to be happening. I just don't see an offense, unless pick up ball style offense is considered one.

Yes, and with the players we have we could out score a lot of teams. I know we are suppose to be a defense first team, but with the players we have we should be able to just plain out score some teams. Maybe we need a new offense. Why don't we run the hell out of pick and roll and pick and pop. We have the players for it. Perk can't shoot from outside but all our other bigs can and Perk can roll with the best of them. Also NATE should just be going nuts when he's in the game. He looks like he's trying to be a point guard. He should come in and like crawford for the Hawks, he should be looking to score.  He should also be run off picks the way Ray Allen is  maybe at the same time Ray is and then who ever is open gets the shot. Mix it up. We turn the ball over so much because we do the same thing over and over. All teams in the NBA know what we are going to do. We should have a top Offensive team here. I'd like to see Finley, Ray and NATE on the floor at the same time. 3 shooters and Sheed down low. Come on Doc it's not Rocket Science!

[Who]

Go with a PG centric offense that allows Rondo to create more of the offense

[pearljammer10]

Yeah great post...Everyone just stands around. Rondo hardly penetrates the D, when Pierce gets the ball everyone stops and lets him dribble for 20 seconds at the top of the key and result in a jumper, KG uses his turnaround instead of going to the basket and possibly getting a foul call, Big Baby must have hands made of glue because no matter where he gets the ball with his back to the basket he is going to shoot it, Sheed stands at the three and shoots rather than getting downlow and trying...It could go on and on.

I know we rely on our defense but you need to at least have some offense, it isnt going to take care of itself if your team just shoots jumpers all the time. We have an incredibly low field goal attempt number, we need to run more, put up some better shots earlier on in the shot clock and stop this iso crap... You can play perfect defense and still loose a game if you have nothing on the offensive end.