BBD's Fruitless Hustle (revisited)

[indeedproceed]

If you look at stats in a vacuum, then yes, two points are two points, but go tell that to a player who´s on the court down two with 5 seconds on the clock. Every possession is different to the one before.
Games tell a story. What makes a situation a key situation? What is the difference between a normal possession and a key possession? Why do we remember these situations more?

I mean, did I really just have a discussion about the merits of hustle on a Celtics messageboard? You know why they give Tommy Points? Come on, faf, you´re too smart to tell me that you can´t see a difference in a won hustle play and an unchallenged save of a possession. It´s THE most deciding, human influenced factor in securing crucial plays.

Momentum is important and everything. A block there, a dive on a lose ball here, they're big deals. They 'rally the troops' as it were.

But I'm not sure who is arguing that they're not a big deal. I think what Fafnir is saying is that it is important to contrast the anecdotal moments (your 'hustle plays') with the everyday moments we take for granted.

If guy #1 is smart, skilled, and athletic enough to get into really great position on rebounds, so that he doesn't have to work as hard to get them,

and guy #2 is frantic (in a good way), and borderline reckless in his devotion to getting balls, but because of his size he needs to work harder, so he doesn't get them as well as guy number 1, which is more important?

Hustle plays have a value, but overestimating that value just means you have a lot of losses and a lot of highlights.

[Fafnir]

I mean, did I really just have a discussion about the merits of hustle on a Celtics messageboard? You know why they give Tommy Points? Come on, faf, you´re too smart to tell me that you can´t see a difference in a won hustle play and an unchallenged save of a possession. It´s THE most deciding, human influenced factor in securing crucial plays.

Hustle is important, but its not more important than making the play. Its a means to the end. I want players who hustle on my team, but more importantly I want players who produce.

Your hypothetical "uncontested rebound" is a poor example in my mind. Very few rebounds are unconstested, and even those can bounce off a player's hands and cost his team the possession. I just want the rebound, if that requires hustle (as it often does) so be it. If it requires a simple box out, or just grabbing the ball so be it.

Plus hustle plays can go the wrong direction too. As someone said previously a lot of times the need for hustle can be avoided by making the right play to begin with. A lot of shot blocking can be thought of this way. A proper rotation can prevent a paint shot attempt so that the block is uncessary (Marcus Camby anyone?)

[Redz]

A surprising statistic: Davis' game is the same as KG's now.
Anyone who doesn't see how he's advanced his game this season is blind.
There sure is a lot of whining about him here when, gosh, he's playing great. Couldn't you find someone else more worthy of your criticism? Why pick on one of the most useful players on our team?
This 'revisited' thread should have never be revisited. It's just the same people who've never liked him again airing their feelings.
But if you want to participate in an honest discussion, this is not the thread for it.

Actually it was me who started this thread last year contemplating the relative merits of hustle vs productivity, and wishing BBD could find a better balance with the two.  I was frustrated with Big Baby, but I loved that he seemed, on many nights, to be the only Celtic who gave a poop last year. 

And was me who wanted to "revisit" the idea to demonstrate how much progress he's made in creating the very balance I was hoping for.  From my perspective it was never a complaint thread, more of a wishful thinking thread. 

And I'm not seeing 100% Baby complainers now (or then).

[Spilling Green Dye]

A surprising statistic: Davis' game is the same as KG's now.
Anyone who doesn't see how he's advanced his game this season is blind.

After reading this I give up on this thread lol.  

[Birdbrain]

Another dominating performance from Glen.  His all around game is astounding for someone his size. And the feet oh the quickness is blinding.  I love that he's underrated on this blog.  Makes nights like last night all the more satisfying.. at 3 million a year.

You take the "he's underrated on this blog" strawman argument to the same extreme that you take the "leon powe was a scrub, and people only liked him because he was homeless" argument your making in the other thread.

I think the vast majority of posters on here are very, very happy with Glen Davis. I know i am.

He took some flak last year because he was a moron and broke his hand acting in a very immature fashion, but most of this blog does not "underrate" him with regards to his game and what he brings to the team on the floor . Alot of us will argue he is in 6th man of the year contention, don't really see how that's the blog underrating him.

Do some posters disagree? of course, we have thousands of posters, conservatively, active here. But to make this assertion you do that the majority of fans on this blog don't appreciate or like glen davis's game is ridiculous.

I can find posts from people that don't think Rondo is a top 15 PG in this league in random threads, does the fact that such a post was made by a person make rondo "underrated on this blog"?

First of all you misconstrued my Leon Powe comment.  I said he was overrated scrub who played hard not others.  And yes I think some of his fans were only fans because of his story but, I'm sure some actually thought he was more talented than BBD.  But that was incorrect then as and is not even a discussion now like I mentioned as well in the other thread (since you wanted to bring the 2 threads to light). And yes there are some pretty active anti BBD posters. Maybe if they didn't comment in every BBD thread it wouldn't seem like there are so many.  But no you're incorrect if you think I don't realize that some people appreciate his play. What's not to appreciate?  Really.

And also just for clarification I said people like yourself meaning that specific poster who mentioned him being a better man.

By the way the comparison to Rondo isn't apt and you know it.  BBD takes a ton more flak and has for years. But if someone said that about Rondo it would be just as wrong as Powe people were originally... wait for it IMO.

[Birdbrain]

Another dominating performance from Glen.  His all around game is astounding for someone his size. And the feet oh the quickness is blinding.  I love that he's underrated on this blog.  Makes nights like last night all the more satisfying.. at 3 million a year.

I can't even tell if you are for real or sarcastic. 16 points, 7 rebounds, and 1 assist in 29 minutes is dominating?

The fact that the bar needs to be set so low to consider a davis performance "dominant" should tell you all you need to know about someone who should, to this point, not be considered anything more than a "good, solid bench player."

It was pretty dominating in all phases.  But I'm not really talking about stats.  So I guess it's intangibles as you mentioned in your other post.  Intangibles are hard to see.

[guava_wrench]

If you look at stats in a vacuum, then yes, two points are two points, but go tell that to a player who´s on the court down two with 5 seconds on the clock. Every possession is different to the one before.
Games tell a story. What makes a situation a key situation? What is the difference between a normal possession and a key possession? Why do we remember these situations more?

I mean, did I really just have a discussion about the merits of hustle on a Celtics messageboard? You know why they give Tommy Points? Come on, faf, you´re too smart to tell me that you can´t see a difference in a won hustle play and an unchallenged save of a possession. It´s THE most deciding, human influenced factor in securing crucial plays.

Momentum is important and everything. A block there, a dive on a lose ball here, they're big deals. They 'rally the troops' as it were.

But I'm not sure who is arguing that they're not a big deal. I think what Fafnir is saying is that it is important to contrast the anecdotal moments (your 'hustle plays') with the everyday moments we take for granted.

If guy #1 is smart, skilled, and athletic enough to get into really great position on rebounds, so that he doesn't have to work as hard to get them,

and guy #2 is frantic (in a good way), and borderline reckless in his devotion to getting balls, but because of his size he needs to work harder, so he doesn't get them as well as guy number 1, which is more important?

Hustle plays have a value, but overestimating that value just means you have a lot of losses and a lot of highlights.

Baby has a lot of momentum plays too. By momentum plays, I mean plays where he runs and then can't stop, so he falls down and it looks like diving and hustling when it is actually clumsiness.

[Bankshot]

If you look at stats in a vacuum, then yes, two points are two points, but go tell that to a player who´s on the court down two with 5 seconds on the clock. Every possession is different to the one before.
Games tell a story. What makes a situation a key situation? What is the difference between a normal possession and a key possession? Why do we remember these situations more?

I mean, did I really just have a discussion about the merits of hustle on a Celtics messageboard? You know why they give Tommy Points? Come on, faf, you´re too smart to tell me that you can´t see a difference in a won hustle play and an unchallenged save of a possession. It´s THE most deciding, human influenced factor in securing crucial plays.

Momentum is important and everything. A block there, a dive on a lose ball here, they're big deals. They 'rally the troops' as it were.

But I'm not sure who is arguing that they're not a big deal. I think what Fafnir is saying is that it is important to contrast the anecdotal moments (your 'hustle plays') with the everyday moments we take for granted.

If guy #1 is smart, skilled, and athletic enough to get into really great position on rebounds, so that he doesn't have to work as hard to get them,

and guy #2 is frantic (in a good way), and borderline reckless in his devotion to getting balls, but because of his size he needs to work harder, so he doesn't get them as well as guy number 1, which is more important?

Hustle plays have a value, but overestimating that value just means you have a lot of losses and a lot of highlights.

Baby has a lot of momentum plays too. By momentum plays, I mean plays where he runs and then can't stop, so he falls down and it looks like diving and hustling when it is actually clumsiness.

He is sometimes clumsy, but clumsiness derived from his hustle.  He wouldn't go flying anywhere if he hadn't been hustling hard.

[mmbaby]

Great points about Baby, though in my opinion, Baby is almost as good as KG. And when you add in the intangibles mentioned here and regular improvement in getting the shot in the paint, jumpers, defending the paint, making smart moves and passes, assists, steals, blocked shots, taking charges and adding fuel to the team chemistry, that's a lot.
And when someone mentions here that I'm just filled with Hyperbolation and making too much of a mere bench player, I say he can play every role or will be able to by the time this thing is over. So, no I don't believe I'm making too much of Glen.
This has been a great year for him to date. KG also.