BBD's Fruitless Hustle (revisited)

[Greenbean]

if bynum is limited like i believe he is...the lakers are in trouble. kobe, gasol and odom played the entire second half without a break

While we stayed with our bench for most of the 4th resting our starters.

Once again Phil gets pantsed by Doc. Dont you at least attempt to give those guys a rest?

[Fafnir]

if bynum is limited like i believe he is...the lakers are in trouble. kobe, gasol and odom played the entire second half without a break

While we stayed with our bench for most of the 4th resting our starters.

Once again Phil gets pantsed by Doc. Dont you at least attempt to give those guys a rest?

I don't think Phil got pantsed by Doc. Both made a decision, one worked and the other didn't. Doc has done the same thing with putting starters in early in the fourth and leaving them in the rest of the quarter.

[Brendan]

I like the KG and Shrek v. Odom matchups. I think Perk and Sheed have both played Gasol well. I think Perk has been okay on Bynum.
 
So - basically if Bynum is seriously hurt / limited, that will be a huge help. Perk needs to bust it down court on all rebounds and TOs - force Bynum to run full court.

[Redz]

Pretty amazing transformation for Big Baby. All of the concerns I had a year ago have been addressed.  He has found a way to harness his hustle.  He was found a way to make shots in the paint.  He is consistently making good choices - even when under duress.

Not sure what clicked, but it's exciting to see.

[Brendan]

Pretty amazing transformation for Big Baby. All of the concerns I had a year ago have been addressed.  He has found a way to harness his hustle.  He was found a way to make shots in the paint.  He is consistently making good choices - even when under duress.

Not sure what clicked, but it's exciting to see.

Have to agree completely. I think hustle players end up inevitably overrated - but he's clearly playing the best ball of his career. He's a great backup to KG at PF + 3rd option at center. I started the season thinking he was tradeable, but I don't see it now - who else besides KG or BBD can play PF?

[snively]

Pretty amazing transformation for Big Baby. All of the concerns I had a year ago have been addressed.  He has found a way to harness his hustle.  He was found a way to make shots in the paint.  He is consistently making good choices - even when under duress.

Not sure what clicked, but it's exciting to see.

I agree that he's greatly improved his ability to finish inside - his shot selection is definitely a big factor there, but other than that I don't see much in the way of a positive transformation. 

Prior to tonight's board fest at the expense of the hapless frontcourt of Jamison and Moon or Hollins, he's having the worst year of his career on the boards.  He's still just decent from mid-range after a hot start, and other than his amazing knack for drawing charges, he is outmatched against most foes in the post and offers little paint protection when he can't get his feet set outside the restricted area.

[xmuscularghandix]

…Pretty much sums up Glen Davis.

[Bankshot]

Pretty amazing transformation for Big Baby. All of the concerns I had a year ago have been addressed.  He has found a way to harness his hustle.  He was found a way to make shots in the paint.  He is consistently making good choices - even when under duress.

Not sure what clicked, but it's exciting to see.

I agree that he's greatly improved his ability to finish inside - his shot selection is definitely a big factor there, but other than that I don't see much in the way of a positive transformation. 

Prior to tonight's board fest at the expense of the hapless frontcourt of Jamison and Moon or Hollins, he's having the worst year of his career on the boards.  He's still just decent from mid-range after a hot start, and other than his amazing knack for drawing charges, he is outmatched against most foes in the post and offers little paint protection when he can't get his feet set outside the restricted area.

I think his problem rebounding this season was due to knee tendinitis he has been playing with. For some reason it hasn't been mentioned.  Looks like he's bouncing back from that injury.  Baby is playing great this year.

[Fan from VT]

I honestly don't see a different player from last year, just a player getting more minutes. Even despite his torrid start (so Including it, NOT ignoring it) it looked to me like he already settled into the same player as last year.


I checked all the numbers I could, and couldn't find any that really disagree with my visual assumption.

From ESPN:
-PER is 11.92 compared to 11.59.
-TS% is 52.7 compared to 50.0
-Points/Rebounds/Assists Per 40m=
10/11= 14.2/6.6/1.6
09/10= 14.6/8.8/1.5

From 82games:
-eFG% is .482 compared to .437
BUT
-His foul drawing is down to 12% from 19.4%
(which explains why his True Shooting % from above is largely unchanged; better shooting (taking more open shots) but not aggressively getting fouled).
-This year his shot selection is 65% jumpers, 32% close; last year it was 42% jumpers, 55% close
(This explains why his free throw attempts are way down)
-This year he is outplayed by his opposing counterpart by -4.1 (Davis's efficiency minus Opponent's efficiency); this is an improvement from last year's -5.4
-His adjusted +/- (on/off) has gone from -10.4 to -16.9
(Probably because he is being compared to this year's KG, Shaq, and JO; obviously KG this year looks better than last, and Shaq has exceeded expectations; in fairness to Davis, most players would be a net-minus compared to KG/Shaq).



So, yeah. Same player, backup level production, more minutes.

[Spilling Green Dye]

TP Fan from VT for doing the research to backup what I also see... the same ole' same ole' from Davis.

I just think some people see one or two memorable plays from him a game and remember him for that w/o looking at actual production.  He's still doesn't qualify as a starter for most, if any, teams.  I like some things he does, and am glad he's healthy, but the numbers you pulled make me conclude that he's getting way too many minutes.  Then again, there isn't anyone else who is healthy so that's ok.. for now!

[Fan from VT]

TP Fan from VT for doing the research to backup what I also see... the same ole' same ole' from Davis.

I just think some people see one or two memorable plays from him a game and remember him for that w/o looking at actual production.  He's still doesn't qualify as a starter for most, if any, teams.  I like some things he does, and am glad he's healthy, but the numbers you pulled make me conclude that he's getting way too many minutes.  Then again, there isn't anyone else who is healthy so that's ok.. for now!

Right. I mean, he's valuable to us as a bench-type minutes sponge.

So at this point, he's not tradeable unless:
-JO OR Perk come back fully healthy AND we get a 3/4 type in a trade.
-JO AND Perk come back fully healthy and we get a true 3 in a trade
-It's a Davis for 2 Players type of trade in which one of the two returning pieces is a true PF. But I don't see that happening because why would a team trade a true PF as good as Davis PLUS an extra piece for Davis? The only way I see that is if the PF coming to the C's in question is older and the team wants a more youthful PF in Davis.

[Brendan]

TP Fan from VT for doing the research to backup what I also see... the same ole' same ole' from Davis.

I just think some people see one or two memorable plays from him a game and remember him for that w/o looking at actual production.  He's still doesn't qualify as a starter for most, if any, teams.  I like some things he does, and am glad he's healthy, but the numbers you pulled make me conclude that he's getting way too many minutes.  Then again, there isn't anyone else who is healthy so that's ok.. for now!

Right. I mean, he's valuable to us as a bench-type minutes sponge.

So at this point, he's not tradeable unless:
-JO OR Perk come back fully healthy AND we get a 3/4 type in a trade.
-JO AND Perk come back fully healthy and we get a true 3 in a trade
-It's a Davis for 2 Players type of trade in which one of the two returning pieces is a true PF. But I don't see that happening because why would a team trade a true PF as good as Davis PLUS an extra piece for Davis? The only way I see that is if the PF coming to the C's in question is older and the team wants a more youthful PF in Davis.

What I like is:

1. He's spacing the floor and taking jumpers that he passed on last year.

2. The marginal improvement in some of his stats.

He's in a bench role, so I'm not expecting a 20 PER - that's Leon Powe in 2008 territory, Doc would have to bench him. Like I said - hustle is always over rated, but he seems to bring consistent effort, better flow, and more defensive intensity.

I also like the niche backup PF / reserve C role he's eeked out. The nice thing is he can adjust his game to compliment any of the other bigs, like KG. Shaq, Perk, and JO cannot.

[kozlodoev]

1. He's spacing the floor and taking jumpers that he passed on last year.

The problem is, he isn't making them with regularity yet. His JS% up to now is in the high .300s (.375 per 82games, if I recall correctly). This is pretty bad. For comparison, Rondo is shooting .422, and Pierce and Garnett are both around .470.

[Casperian]

hustle is always over rated

Really? By how much exactly?
I mean, how can you rate, never mind overrate something you can´t even quantify?

[Fan from VT]

hustle is always over rated

Really? By how much exactly?
I mean, how can you rate, never mind overrate something you can´t even quantify?

I think it's overrated because people tend to use it as a "tiebreaker" or extra criteria to add to a player's quantifiable value. However, I think in reality, it is more of an explanation of HOW a player produced his quantifiable value, not something of extra inherent value.


For instance, Davis is getting 5.2 rebounds per game this year BECAUSE he hustles. It's not like the team gets Davis's 5.2 rebounds and is awarded an extra possession because he was such a hustler. If he were more athletic and taller, but hustled less, and got 5.2 rebounds per game...the team is still only benefiting from 5.2 rebounds per game! It's an explanation of how stuff happened, not an independent value.