Rondo's Defense vastly overrated?

[Spilling Green Dye]

I believe his defense is a bit overrated, so I wouldn't go so far as to say "vastly overrated".  Keep in mind that a lot of opposing coaches have cited Rondo's defense as a key reason for their loss to the Celtics.  I specifically heard Phil Jackson, as well as a few other coaches, so obviously they see something that we don't.  Having said that, I think Rondo COULD be as good as he is considered, but he's a bit too arrogant and inconsistent at the moment.

[Spilling Green Dye]

TP Birdbrain, I agree with most everything you've said. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

Rondo is simply disruptive defender, particularly when he's pressuring the ball coming down the court. He's sneaky, plays the passing lanes well, plays from behind well, has great hands. So when the opposing PG is not taking advantage of his weakness, he's a monster. And the other side of it, the other player has to go after his weakness.

I just wish he would get a better defensive posture by keeping his knees bent. I think that's all it would take for him to become the defensive "monster" that he should be. As it is, he simply seems to be always in a upright position, and as such he's often defending sideways and from behind.

I'm not going to sit here and say he's a bad defensive player because he does do a lot of good things, and he's been very vocal coordinating our defense alongside Garnett. But I put a lot of stock in stopping PG penetration, which I deem as the most important defensive assignment of a PG. When he's failing at that it drives me nuts, and more often that not it makes our defense collapse.

[BballTim]

I have no stats to back this up, but I defense starts at the point of attack, and Rondo has been getting beaten like a drum lately.

I admittedly have not been watching entire games lately, and it might be that he is coasting, but his defense is not good at all.

He gets a lot of steals on help defense and coming from behind the man he is guarding, but has trouble staying in front of even average point guards.

I only bring this up because I was under the impression he was the premier defensive point guard in the league right now, and watching him closely has been really disappointing.

Is he just not that good, or is he not giving 100% effort?

Very good defensive player who periodically takes plays off like 100% of the league but, Boston fans expect 100% effort.

As mentioned above, this is not solely a "periodically takes plays off" issue.

This has been a problem for him his whole career, only showing a few stretches here and there where he actually plays defense the way he should. If this was as you say it was, he wouldn't have let the Magics' PGs control the game as they did last year during the playoffs.

  The Magic's PGs didn't control the game last year during the playoffs.

[Fan from VT]

I think that there's a few things that could be going on.

1. He's not trying as hard on defense. Gambling more.

2. The NBA hand-check rules have made it very hard to check point guards and have made quick, penetrating point guards more of a priority for teams to draft. Plus, moving picks are essentially allowed now. I think EVERY point guard looks like a terrible defender these days, so it's all relative.

3. PP, KG, and RA have all seen significant reductions in their offensive abilities. This slack has been picked up by Rondo. It's unreasonable to expect him to lock-down the point of attack AND be our best offensive weapon. It just can't happen.

4. He's playing more minutes and is way more critical to our offense, so he has to conserve energy by gambling more on defense.

[Birdbrain]

I believe his defense is a bit overrated, so I wouldn't go so far as to say "vastly overrated".  Keep in mind that a lot of opposing coaches have cited Rondo's defense as a key reason for their loss to the Celtics.  I specifically heard Phil Jackson, as well as a few other coaches, so obviously they see something that we don't.  Having said that, I think Rondo COULD be as good as he is considered, but he's a bit too arrogant and inconsistent at the moment.

TP right back at you especially the portion concerning arrogance.  Rondo knows how good he is and from time to time doesn't respect his opponent.  I'm hoping this is more due to maturity and we'll work itself out as he progresses in his NBA career.  I just consider it nit picking with all the other great things he does on the court.

[BballTim]

I have no stats to back this up, but I defense starts at the point of attack, and Rondo has been getting beaten like a drum lately.

I admittedly have not been watching entire games lately, and it might be that he is coasting, but his defense is not good at all.

He gets a lot of steals on help defense and coming from behind the man he is guarding, but has trouble staying in front of even average point guards.

I only bring this up because I was under the impression he was the premier defensive point guard in the league right now, and watching him closely has been really disappointing.

Is he just not that good, or is he not giving 100% effort?

Very good defensive player who periodically takes plays off like 100% of the league but, Boston fans expect 100% effort.

As mentioned above, this is not solely a "periodically takes plays off" issue.

This has been a problem for him his whole career, only showing a few stretches here and there where he actually plays defense the way he should. If this was as you say it was, he wouldn't have let the Magics' PGs control the game as they did last year during the playoffs.

I disagree.  I think Boston fans hold him to unGodly standard because they are aware of his potential.  They also lack the ability to take into consideration all of his other duties which also leads to him taking a few plays off on defense.  Sort of like if you see a player (and his warts) all the time his faults get out blown out of proportion.  Rondo isn't the only player on the C's this applies to as well.  None of this means he doesn't take plays off just the % of plays is less or at worst even with 100% players around the league. 

  I agree with this. People here have discussed his defense enough that they're always aware of it. Every time he gets beat it sticks out. No player stands up well to that kind of scrutiny. On top of that, he's held to a unattainable standard.
 
   Any time there's a discussion you hear that he's fast enough or quick enough that he should never or rarely get beat. Any time there's a discussion about his defense I ask which PGs are better and I'm much more likely to hear that it doesn't matter how he compares to other PGs as I am to hear a list of PGs that are better at keeping their man in front of them. If I ask which PGs do a better job of keeping Rondo in front of them than he does keeping them in front of him and, again, that doesn't matter.

  By most accounts his defense, poor as it may be, is better than last year. Near the end of last year SI polled some NBA GMs and scouts and they rated Rondo best defensive pg in the league. He was 2nd team all defense, which is voted on by the coaches. This fall he finished at the top of a poll of all NBA GMs for best perimeter defender. As has been mentioned earlier, opposing coaches have been known to talk about what a difference his defense makes. If his defense is vastly overrated, he's got the right people fooled.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I have no stats to back this up, but I defense starts at the point of attack, and Rondo has been getting beaten like a drum lately.

I admittedly have not been watching entire games lately, and it might be that he is coasting, but his defense is not good at all.

He gets a lot of steals on help defense and coming from behind the man he is guarding, but has trouble staying in front of even average point guards.

I only bring this up because I was under the impression he was the premier defensive point guard in the league right now, and watching him closely has been really disappointing.

Is he just not that good, or is he not giving 100% effort?

Very good defensive player who periodically takes plays off like 100% of the league but, Boston fans expect 100% effort.

As mentioned above, this is not solely a "periodically takes plays off" issue.

This has been a problem for him his whole career, only showing a few stretches here and there where he actually plays defense the way he should. If this was as you say it was, he wouldn't have let the Magics' PGs control the game as they did last year during the playoffs.

I disagree.  I think Boston fans hold him to unGodly standard because they are aware of his potential.  They also lack the ability to take into consideration all of his other duties which also leads to him taking a few plays off on defense.  Sort of like if you see a player (and his warts) all the time his faults get out blown out of proportion.  Rondo isn't the only player on the C's this applies to as well.  None of this means he doesn't take plays off just the % of plays is less or at worst even with 100% players around the league. 

  I agree with this. People here have discussed his defense enough that they're always aware of it. Every time he gets beat it sticks out. No player stands up well to that kind of scrutiny. On top of that, he's held to a unattainable standard.
 
   Any time there's a discussion you hear that he's fast enough or quick enough that he should never or rarely get beat. Any time there's a discussion about his defense I ask which PGs are better and I'm much more likely to hear that it doesn't matter how he compares to other PGs as I am to hear a list of PGs that are better at keeping their man in front of them. If I ask which PGs do a better job of keeping Rondo in front of them than he does keeping them in front of him and, again, that doesn't matter.

  By most accounts his defense, poor as it may be, is better than last year. Near the end of last year SI polled some NBA GMs and scouts and they rated Rondo best defensive pg in the league. He was 2nd team all defense, which is voted on by the coaches. This fall he finished at the top of a poll of all NBA GMs for best perimeter defender. As has been mentioned earlier, opposing coaches have been known to talk about what a difference his defense makes. If his defense is vastly overrated, he's got the right people fooled.

Not quite. At least not for me. It's not one play here and one play there that makes me judge how he plays defense. It's the full body of work. It wasn't long ago that Doc was criticizing the team, particularly of how opposing PG play was a critical element in our team struggles (partly House's fault).

As for the polls, yep you're correct he's voted by the coaches, yet Doc took the chance right there to "criticize" his defense a bit? Yep, it's obviously the fans that have Rondo under a microscope and that's why we notice this things.

About having the right people fooled, one of the common topics around this blog is about Marcus Camby's defense, does he have everyone fooled too?

And yep, in doesn't matter what other PG around the league are doing. All that matters is what Rondo is doing. I'm not watching all the teams around the league in a consistent basis to know who all the good defenders at the position are, nor am I paying attention to all of that. Not my interest. My interest is in what this team is doing right and what it's doing wrong.

You ask about all this polls and the defensive players selected, and I'm willing to bet that most of the really good defensive players at the PG position aren't included. Why is this? Because at that position most of the NBA is looking for offensive players and players that can run the offense well. Finding one that does that and is a great defensive player is quite rare. So better defensive players in the position are out there, they're simply not at the forefront. Not like centers, were their defense is one of the biggest skill-set the NBA looks for and easier to take notice of. Fact is, that defensive-minded PG's are uncommon to take the floor, which skews perception of what a good defensive PG should be, because PG are often compared with peers that are actually taking the floor because of their strengths in other areas of the game.

Also, as I mentioned, Rondo has a lot of strength in other areas of his defense. Maybe that's what the coaches are actually seeing and being impressed by? Rondo is certainly a chaotic defender and his ball pressure is very legit, his hands are very legit, his instincts are legit, his voice is legit, his athleticism and rebounding ability is legit. He's simply not a good at keeping his man in front of him. It's not his strength. Why is it so hard to understand or accept that?

[Greenbean]

I have no stats to back this up, but I defense starts at the point of attack, and Rondo has been getting beaten like a drum lately.

I admittedly have not been watching entire games lately, and it might be that he is coasting, but his defense is not good at all.

He gets a lot of steals on help defense and coming from behind the man he is guarding, but has trouble staying in front of even average point guards.

I only bring this up because I was under the impression he was the premier defensive point guard in the league right now, and watching him closely has been really disappointing.

Is he just not that good, or is he not giving 100% effort?

Very good defensive player who periodically takes plays off like 100% of the league but, Boston fans expect 100% effort.

As mentioned above, this is not solely a "periodically takes plays off" issue.

This has been a problem for him his whole career, only showing a few stretches here and there where he actually plays defense the way he should. If this was as you say it was, he wouldn't have let the Magics' PGs control the game as they did last year during the playoffs.

I disagree.  I think Boston fans hold him to unGodly standard because they are aware of his potential.  They also lack the ability to take into consideration all of his other duties which also leads to him taking a few plays off on defense.  Sort of like if you see a player (and his warts) all the time his faults get out blown out of proportion.  Rondo isn't the only player on the C's this applies to as well.  None of this means he doesn't take plays off just the % of plays is less or at worst even with 100% players around the league. 

  I agree with this. People here have discussed his defense enough that they're always aware of it. Every time he gets beat it sticks out. No player stands up well to that kind of scrutiny. On top of that, he's held to a unattainable standard.
 
   Any time there's a discussion you hear that he's fast enough or quick enough that he should never or rarely get beat. Any time there's a discussion about his defense I ask which PGs are better and I'm much more likely to hear that it doesn't matter how he compares to other PGs as I am to hear a list of PGs that are better at keeping their man in front of them. If I ask which PGs do a better job of keeping Rondo in front of them than he does keeping them in front of him and, again, that doesn't matter.

  By most accounts his defense, poor as it may be, is better than last year. Near the end of last year SI polled some NBA GMs and scouts and they rated Rondo best defensive pg in the league. He was 2nd team all defense, which is voted on by the coaches. This fall he finished at the top of a poll of all NBA GMs for best perimeter defender. As has been mentioned earlier, opposing coaches have been known to talk about what a difference his defense makes. If his defense is vastly overrated, he's got the right people fooled.

Tp.

As I posted earlier in this thread. Keeping PG's in front of you is the hardest job in basketball. They are the quickest player on the court and also have the best handle. There aren't many guys that even have the ability to keep a PG in front of them for an entire game. We at least have a guy that has the potential to and occasionally will for the length of a game.

[Greenbean]

Not quite. At least not for me. It's not one play here and one play there that makes me judge how he plays defense. It's the full body of work. It wasn't long ago that Doc was criticizing the team, particularly of how opposing PG play was a critical element in our team struggles (partly House's fault).

As for the polls, yep you're correct he's voted by the coaches, yet Doc took the chance right there to "criticize" his defense a bit? Yep, it's obviously the fans that have Rondo under a microscope and that's why we notice this things.

About having the right people fooled, one of the common topics around this blog is about Marcus Camby's defense, does he have everyone fooled too?

And yep, in doesn't matter what other PG around the league are doing. All that matters is what Rondo is doing. I'm not watching all the teams around the league in a consistent basis to know who all the good defenders at the position are, nor am I paying attention to all of that. Not my interest. My interest is in what this team is doing right and what it's doing wrong.

You ask about all this polls and the defensive players selected, and I'm willing to bet that most of the really good defensive players at the PG position aren't included. Why is this? Because at that position most of the NBA is looking for offensive players and players that can run the offense well. Finding one that does that and is a great defensive player is quite rare. So better defensive players in the position are out there, they're simply not at the forefront. Not like centers, were their defense is one of the biggest skill-set the NBA looks for and easier to take notice of. Fact is, that defensive-minded PG's are uncommon to take the floor, which skews perception of what a good defensive PG should be, because PG are often compared with peers that are actually taking the floor because of their strengths in other areas of the game.

Also, as I mentioned, Rondo has a lot of strength in other areas of his defense. Maybe that's what the coaches are actually seeing and being impressed by? Rondo is certainly a chaotic defender and his ball pressure is very legit, his hands are very legit, his instincts are legit, his voice is legit, his athleticism and rebounding ability is legit. He's simply not a good at keeping his man in front of him. It's not his strength. Why is it so hard to understand or accept that?

It is not hard to accept that at all. I think most here do. What is releveant here is that Rondo's only defensive weakness is a shared weakness by the majority of pgs in the league IMO.

That is why it is important to put this into perspective.

If we want Rondo to keep his man in front of him for the entire game AND be the same playmaker and disruptive force we have seen over the past couple of years, that just might be an unreasonable request.

Edit: Of course if you would rather him just be a "stay in fornt of his man" type of defender instead of a playmaker that is a different debate. If that is the case, I am not sure Rondo's body is built for that kind of physical play.

[RAcker]

He allowed a couple of blow by plays in the game last night where he had no help and he got caught on a couple of pick and rolls where the big didn't step up at a proper angle to help.  Is this all his fault?  Hard to say, but probably not.

There is a lot of communication going on when we are on defense and it appeared like more of a communication breakdown most of the time rather than just poor defense.  Cue Led Zepplin.

[Tough Juice]

the only aspect of defense that Rondo is good at is stealing the ball, every other defense aspect of his game is way overrated

[housecall]

He just wants the steals, he's trying to keep his lead on the league, probably. He could be as good of a defensive point guard as anyone if he really put some effort into it.

Doc made a statement a few months ago in reference to the team not playing well he suspected at the time certain players were more concern with their stats than playing the game the right way.It shocked me at the time he said it but it might be true.Do you feel this is one of those things he might be refering to?

[BudweiserCeltic]

Not quite. At least not for me. It's not one play here and one play there that makes me judge how he plays defense. It's the full body of work. It wasn't long ago that Doc was criticizing the team, particularly of how opposing PG play was a critical element in our team struggles (partly House's fault).

As for the polls, yep you're correct he's voted by the coaches, yet Doc took the chance right there to "criticize" his defense a bit? Yep, it's obviously the fans that have Rondo under a microscope and that's why we notice this things.

About having the right people fooled, one of the common topics around this blog is about Marcus Camby's defense, does he have everyone fooled too?

And yep, in doesn't matter what other PG around the league are doing. All that matters is what Rondo is doing. I'm not watching all the teams around the league in a consistent basis to know who all the good defenders at the position are, nor am I paying attention to all of that. Not my interest. My interest is in what this team is doing right and what it's doing wrong.

You ask about all this polls and the defensive players selected, and I'm willing to bet that most of the really good defensive players at the PG position aren't included. Why is this? Because at that position most of the NBA is looking for offensive players and players that can run the offense well. Finding one that does that and is a great defensive player is quite rare. So better defensive players in the position are out there, they're simply not at the forefront. Not like centers, were their defense is one of the biggest skill-set the NBA looks for and easier to take notice of. Fact is, that defensive-minded PG's are uncommon to take the floor, which skews perception of what a good defensive PG should be, because PG are often compared with peers that are actually taking the floor because of their strengths in other areas of the game.

Also, as I mentioned, Rondo has a lot of strength in other areas of his defense. Maybe that's what the coaches are actually seeing and being impressed by? Rondo is certainly a chaotic defender and his ball pressure is very legit, his hands are very legit, his instincts are legit, his voice is legit, his athleticism and rebounding ability is legit. He's simply not a good at keeping his man in front of him. It's not his strength. Why is it so hard to understand or accept that?

It is not hard to accept that at all. I think most here do. What is releveant here is that Rondo's only defensive weakness is a shared weakness by the majority of pgs in the league IMO.

That is why it is important to put this into perspective.

This is the thing though, which makes this discussion and comparison with other players difficult, many of the players that overall are weaker than Rondo defensively might actually be better and staying in front of their PG's. Though these same ones might have more trouble with PGs that have a lot of speed in them, so at the same time they're considered weak defenders. Yes, I know there's a bit of a contradiction there, which makes this type of comparison difficult and ultimately meaningless to me.

So if I say that House might actually be considered as a player that is better at staying in front of his man I might get laughed out of here... mainly because he's weak defensively and speedy PG's would have a field day with him. But if I could take Eddie's willingness that he showed with us, and a bit of his defensive posture and put it on Rondo, Rondo would be quite awesome on a man to man basis.

If I mention Lindsey Hunter, someone will come and say "yeah, but you're not going to trade Lindsey for Rondo... RONDO >>>>>>>>>> Hunter". Of course, so what's the point?

So yeah, it's very hard to evaluate. So you take your pony, and either you like the skill-set he brings or you don't. Overall, I like Rondo's skill-set defensively, but I put a lot of stock in keeping PG's out of the paint and in front of you. So if you ask me if I would take an inferior defender over Rondo just because he does this well I might hesitate because it's not clear, there are many factors in there. But it doesn't mean that I have to close my eyes to what is clearly one of Rondo's weaknesses defensively which can be exploited, and say all is right with the world.

If we want Rondo to keep his man in front of him for the entire game AND be the same playmaker and disruptive force we have seen over the past couple of years, that just might be an unreasonable request.

Edit: Of course if you would rather him just be a "stay in fornt of his man" type of defender instead of a playmaker that is a different debate. If that is the case, I am not sure Rondo's body is built for that kind of physical play.

I don't think so. I simply think he's missing a bit on his defensive fundamentals, again just look at his defensive posture. It's not one that really screams "yep this guy will be tough to penetrate through". Go look at a Lyndsey Hunter defensive posture, and you'll see what pretty good defense looks like.

All of the PGs you guys might have in mind, and you brought them here and they were showing the same defensive problems Rondo is showing, they would be equally complained about. So either you're doing it right or you're doing it wrong. That it's something that many PG's suffer from it doesn't mean I have to accept it from the one we have, particularly when he should be fully capable of doing something about it.

Or is Tommy just talking a bunch of crap when he's shouting for Rondo to bend his knees. Obviously I'm not the only one noticing this.

[BballTim]

And yep, in doesn't matter what other PG around the league are doing. All that matters is what Rondo is doing. I'm not watching all the teams around the league in a consistent basis to know who all the good defenders at the position are, nor am I paying attention to all of that. Not my interest. My interest is in what this team is doing right and what it's doing wrong.

  IMO it's meaningless to evaluate a player in a vacuum. This is no different than claiming that Ray has always been a terrible three point shooter because he makes well under half of those shots.

Also, as I mentioned, Rondo has a lot of strength in other areas of his defense. Maybe that's what the coaches are actually seeing and being impressed by? Rondo is certainly a chaotic defender and his ball pressure is very legit, his hands are very legit, his instincts are legit, his voice is legit, his athleticism and rebounding ability is legit. He's simply not a good at keeping his man in front of him. It's not his strength. Why is it so hard to understand or accept that?

  I agree that keeping his man in front of him isn't the strongest part of Rondo's defensive game. I just disagree with the assertion that he does it poorly. I think people have unrealistic expectations in this area, especially when the other team uses a pick to get the opposing PG free of Rondo.