Time to sit BBD and give Shelden Some Run

[Tai]

Davis needs to shoot the jumper more ... that is what gives him a chance to be an effective offensive player - not just cutting then getting his shot blocked because he has a vertical that Charles Oakley would consider poor. 

Shelden would play more I suspect if he did not have two catchers mitts for hands and did not shoot the midrange jumpers he likes poorly.  And he is not like Leon Powe who attracted foulers like flies and thus got to the line at a league-leading sort of pace.

Stop the mindless repeating of what others are telling you. It isn't true. Shelden had no issues earlier in the year catching the ball, anymore than Perk or BBD does. Even if he doesn't catch the ball in traffic as well it isn't any worse than BBD's constant offensive fouls setting picks or him getting blocked time and time again under the rim. BBD's turnover rate is just as high as Sheldens so it really doesn't matter how he gets them. Those offensive rebonds mean nothing when he can't do anything with them.

But he does do something with them most of the time. He is not blocked everytime he gets the ball.
Mindless repeating of what someone else tells you? As fans we are at the mercy of what reporters and broadcasters tell you when it comes to a player that doesn't play.
I don't think Doc would blindly pledge allegiance to Davis if Williams was outplaying him in practice. You have no basis to say Williams is better because you saw him play well at the start of the season. If he was better than Davis he would play more.

I know you are frustrated with Davis getting blocked but he is still better than Williams according to Doc. Docs opinion certainly carries more weight with me than yours does because he happens to coach the team.

To say that you want to see Davis replaced by someone who finishes better next year makes sense. To say that you want him to get replaced on the depth chart by Shelden because you assume a player that gets no burn is better does not.

About 5-6 games prior to BBD returning he magically started getting no minutes. He hadn't been playing badly, he just was sat. I said at the time that this was likely done as to not create a controversy when BBD returned. Looks pretty prophetic to me...

You more or less hurt your argument by admitting that Shelden was in fact sat prior to BBD coming back. Cause now you're demonstrating that Shelden was infact sat for his own shortcomings, instead of BBD coming back to take his minutes. If Shelden was really doing as well as you claim he was, why would the coaching staff see any reason to bench Shelden before BBD came back?  

You claiming it was done to "not create a controversy" is simply laughable to me, especially if you really said it at the time. I mean, is it really not possible to you that Shelden was sat as promptly as he was because of what everyone else already pointed out to you?

[ben]

I think Sheldan played great at beginning of the season when he was getting fourth big minutes.  Before he got benched he was fitting in great with his role, and I am not sure why he lost his minutes all of a sudden! 

I think BBD is a very poor center, and a below average powerforward.  Shelden plays good defence with Rasheed, gives us more length and makes us tougher. 

[EJPLAYA]

Davis needs to shoot the jumper more ... that is what gives him a chance to be an effective offensive player - not just cutting then getting his shot blocked because he has a vertical that Charles Oakley would consider poor. 

Shelden would play more I suspect if he did not have two catchers mitts for hands and did not shoot the midrange jumpers he likes poorly.  And he is not like Leon Powe who attracted foulers like flies and thus got to the line at a league-leading sort of pace.

Stop the mindless repeating of what others are telling you. It isn't true. Shelden had no issues earlier in the year catching the ball, anymore than Perk or BBD does. Even if he doesn't catch the ball in traffic as well it isn't any worse than BBD's constant offensive fouls setting picks or him getting blocked time and time again under the rim. BBD's turnover rate is just as high as Sheldens so it really doesn't matter how he gets them. Those offensive rebonds mean nothing when he can't do anything with them.

But he does do something with them most of the time. He is not blocked everytime he gets the ball.
Mindless repeating of what someone else tells you? As fans we are at the mercy of what reporters and broadcasters tell you when it comes to a player that doesn't play.
I don't think Doc would blindly pledge allegiance to Davis if Williams was outplaying him in practice. You have no basis to say Williams is better because you saw him play well at the start of the season. If he was better than Davis he would play more.

I know you are frustrated with Davis getting blocked but he is still better than Williams according to Doc. Docs opinion certainly carries more weight with me than yours does because he happens to coach the team.

To say that you want to see Davis replaced by someone who finishes better next year makes sense. To say that you want him to get replaced on the depth chart by Shelden because you assume a player that gets no burn is better does not.

Maybe watch the game and decide for yourself?! I saw every minute he played this year and I can promise you that he wasn't fumbling the ball away every time he touched it. In fact I can remember quite a few times him catching it in traffic and going up and dunking the basketball. Other than a couple games over the first 25+ games he played he was very consistent offensively and defensively. The second unit was running very smoothly with him in there because he did a great job hustling on defense, rebounding the ball, and playing within himself. About 5-6 games prior to BBD returning he magically started getting no minutes. He hadn't been playing badly, he just was sat. I said at the time that this was likely done as to not create a controversy when BBD returned. Looks pretty prophetic to me...

Fact is that our second unit was smoother with him out there due to the skillset he brings. Yes BBD has more upside and does a couple things better. He doesn't however feel he needs to earn his minutes. Sticking Shelden in there while we have been struggling for a few games not only will mix things up, but likely light a fire under BBD. The BBD of last year is for sure the guy we want in that lineup. This year's BBD is the rookie that kept getting his minutes taken due to inconsistency. I just can't see why Doc feels no need to make him play better to keep them. As far as the way the team feels about him, there is likely a reason they had no problem throwing him out as trade bait for an underachieving PG from Charlotte.

If you missed the fact that he was fumbling and dropping the ball, that is your shortcoming. We were not having a mass delusion. Your lack of attentiveness is a far more reasonable explanation than the majority of us sharing a fantasy.

First of all that is borderline personally insulting. Second of all it's much more likely that the pro BBD anti Shelden crowd is exaggerating his fumbling of the ball to try and make a point they can't back up with facts. This should be real easy. IF he fumbled the ball away as often as you say then he would have a lot more turnovers like TA does. If he dropped one and picked it up and scored I really couldn't care less. Much better than getting blocked 2-3 times in a posession under the basket and ending up with nothing. Stats are stats. Most of Sheldens stats per minute are better than BBD's. His FG% and FT% are about the same. His outside shooting is also about the same as BBD's. Sounds to me like there is a lot of over valuation of BBD's worth out there. It sure hasn't resulted in us playing better basketball.

[Spilling Green Dye]

Watching Glen Davis play basketball is like watching a chicken with its head cut off.  I cannot even begin to describe how many defensive failures he's had, but unfortunately Shelden had a lot himself.  Davis does do pretty well at drawing the charge when he's near the hoop, so I give him credit there.  However, the drop off in talent from KG/Perk/Sheed(when he's trying) to Davis is monumental.  I feel like we're racing 20 laps with a formula 1 racecar, with an interminent 7 laps of honda civic driving.  That's what is so frustrating to watch about Davis... its not particularly him, but that this team is actually very good and has high expectations.

Shelden might not have the greatest hands, but from what I saw most of those drops were bullet passes on fast breaks.  The fact is, I can't even recal the last time I saw Glen Davis be one of the first two or three down the court on a fast break, so the situation is different.

Ultimately Shelden vs Davis isn't a big issue.  But, I would have liked to have seen Shelden at least a few minutes for 2 reasons:
1)  A few weeks back the team seemed soft.  I think Shelden on the 2nd unit could have helped add some grit
2)  Davis is not in nearly as good of shape as he was touting he would be in.  Having some of his minutes go to Shelden could light a fire under him.  On the other hand, Davis is a sensitive guy so this could backfire. 

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

Maybe watch the game and decide for yourself?! I saw every minute he played this year and I can promise you that he wasn't fumbling the ball away every time he touched it. In fact I can remember quite a few times him catching it in traffic and going up and dunking the basketball. Other than a couple games over the first 25+ games he played he was very consistent offensively and defensively. The second unit was running very smoothly with him in there because he did a great job hustling on defense, rebounding the ball, and playing within himself. About 5-6 games prior to BBD returning he magically started getting no minutes. He hadn't been playing badly, he just was sat. I said at the time that this was likely done as to not create a controversy when BBD returned. Looks pretty prophetic to me...

Of course it looks prophetic to you.  That's because you're bending reality to fit the story you've told yourself.  Sheldon quit playing because Sheldon started playing badly.  As I stated before, Sheldon's first 3 weeks of the season were OFF THE CHARTS.  He was posting career highs in EVERY category.  And then do you know what happened?  He came back down to earth and Doc stopped playing him.

Fact is that our second unit was smoother with him out there due to the skillset he brings. Yes BBD has more upside and does a couple things better. He doesn't however feel he needs to earn his minutes. Sticking Shelden in there while we have been struggling for a few games not only will mix things up, but likely light a fire under BBD. The BBD of last year is for sure the guy we want in that lineup. This year's BBD is the rookie that kept getting his minutes taken due to inconsistency. I just can't see why Doc feels no need to make him play better to keep them. As far as the way the team feels about him, there is likely a reason they had no problem throwing him out as trade bait for an underachieving PG from Charlotte.

Baby's been outplaying, outhustling, out-rebouding, and out everything-ing 'Sheed for the last 4 weeks.  I'm not sure he needed a fire lit beneath him--that would be 'Sheed's old ass that needs the fire.

<sniped>

Meanwhile, he was a pretty lethal shooter from the elbow last season, and that's disappeared. He hasn't been successfully catching, stepping into and draining that shot with any semblance of consistancy this year. Like a Sheed 3-pointer, I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw him make it. Unlike a Sheed 3-pointer, I'm hopeful that with practice and rythm it can improve.

<snipped>

I feel like this, and the bit about his condition and his attitude, haven't been relevant criticisms in the last 4 weeks.  In fact, Baby hit a jumper in our last game, and in the one before that as well.  Yes, his jump shot was impaired due to his thumb, but it's back now.  His supposed attitude problems have never been substantiated either...

And EJPLAYA, I don't know about sk, but I've seen Shelden fumble many passes that could've resulted in easy dunks. I won't claim it's the only reason Shelden isn't played over BBD, but it's just as much a weakness for Shelden as being blocked is for BBD. Yes, it is true. Don't downplay it just to make Shelden look better than he really is.

I feel the need to mention this one more time--statistically speaking, Sheldon gets his shot blocked about TWICE as much as Baby does.  And for all Baby's lift problems around the rim, he's historically a MUCH, MUCH better finisher than Sheldon.  That is, if you go by the #s.  

[Spilling Green Dye]

I also meant to add that Davis is apparently better than Shelden b/c of his offense.  I have yet to see Davis create his own shot with any sort of consistency.  It's like having Scalabrine on the floor, except Scalabrine has value in spreading the floor and minimizing his mistakes.

[Spilling Green Dye]

I feel the need to mention this one more time--statistically speaking, Sheldon gets his shot blocked about TWICE as much as Baby does.  And for all Baby's lift problems around the rim, he's historically a MUCH, MUCH better finisher than Sheldon.  That is, if you go by the #s.  

Can you please cite the statistic where Shelden gets blocked approximately 60% of the time?  Can you also cite the statistic about Davis finishing much better around the hoop?  I'm curious to see this..

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

I also meant to add that Davis is apparently better than Shelden b/c of his offense.  I have yet to see Davis create his own shot with any sort of consistency.  It's like having Scalabrine on the floor, except Scalabrine has value in spreading the floor and minimizing his mistakes.

I'm seriously beginning to doubt the ability of some people to observe a basketball game.

There have been several occasions in the last month alone where we've dumped the ball to Baby at the end of the shot clock and let him get us a shot, usually a fall away jumper, or a rolling hook shot.  In terms of shot creating ability, he's no Paul Pierce, but he's certainly a lot better than Scal or Williams or Perk.

The Sheldon hands problem is more than not catching the ball.  He actually has decent hands--they're just small.  So, that smallness leads to a lack of strength and then to a bunch of mis-handles, while also leaving him susceptible to having the ball poked away when he's attempting shots at the rim.  Having small, weak hands isn't a good attribute in a basketball player and it's pretty much sealed the deal as to why Williams is a 12th man type in the NBA.

[vwoodruff]

I have to agree in part with the OP.

Shelden did some great things, and he and Rondo -in particular - seemed to play really well together. As much as people can claim he has bad hands, what I remember are the absolute bullets Rondo would thread to him for layups, dunks, and trips to the stripe.

As a coach myself, I was extremely surprised to see Doc give BBD the spot in the rotation immediately upon return. I would have made him earn it (plus some) for being a bonehead.

I think Williams' ability to get to the FT line and hit them at a good clip from there is underestimated.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

I feel the need to mention this one more time--statistically speaking, Sheldon gets his shot blocked about TWICE as much as Baby does.  And for all Baby's lift problems around the rim, he's historically a MUCH, MUCH better finisher than Sheldon.  That is, if you go by the #s.  

Can you please cite the statistic where Shelden gets blocked approximately 60% of the time?  Can you also cite the statistic about Davis finishing much better around the hoop?  I'm curious to see this..

Well, I already did that on page 3 of this thread.  But, once more, here are the relevant stats:

Here are Sheldon's from 2008-2009:

31% of his shots were jumpers, which he hit at an eFG% of 33%
51% of his shots were 'close', which he hit at an eFG% of 45.7%

14% of his jumpers were blocked, while 29% of his close shots were blocked.

from: http://www.82games.com/0809/08MIN12.HTM

Here are Baby's #s last season:

60% of his shots were jumpers, which he hit at an eFG% of 36.9%
36% of his shots were 'close', which he hit at an eFG% of 52.5%

6% of his jumpers were blocked, while 13% of his close shots were blocked.

from: http://www.82games.com/0809/08BOS13.HTM

Historically speaking, Baby's finishing #s are superior to Sheldon's.  This season, however, that superiority isn't as pronounced, as Sheldon put together probably the most efficient stretch of his career in November 2009, while Baby has been hampered with a bum thumb, and a sore ankle, things that have impacted his lift and finishing/shooting ability.  I have no doubt that with more injury-free playing time, Baby's #s will return to their pre-injury levels, just like I have no doubt that Sheldon's 3 week stretch of brilliance was nothing more than a mirage.

[Mr October]

I feel the need to mention this one more time--statistically speaking, Sheldon gets his shot blocked about TWICE as much as Baby does.  And for all Baby's lift problems around the rim, he's historically a MUCH, MUCH better finisher than Sheldon.  That is, if you go by the #s.  

Can you please cite the statistic where Shelden gets blocked approximately 60% of the time?  Can you also cite the statistic about Davis finishing much better around the hoop?  I'm curious to see this..

Well, I already did that on page 3 of this thread.  But, once more, here are the relevant stats:

Here are Sheldon's from 2008-2009:

31% of his shots were jumpers, which he hit at an eFG% of 33%
51% of his shots were 'close', which he hit at an eFG% of 45.7%

14% of his jumpers were blocked, while 29% of his close shots were blocked.

from: http://www.82games.com/0809/08MIN12.HTM

Here are Baby's #s last season:

60% of his shots were jumpers, which he hit at an eFG% of 36.9%
36% of his shots were 'close', which he hit at an eFG% of 52.5%

6% of his jumpers were blocked, while 13% of his close shots were blocked.

from: http://www.82games.com/0809/08BOS13.HTM

Historically speaking, Baby's finishing #s are superior to Sheldon's.  This season, however, that superiority isn't as pronounced, as Sheldon put together probably the most efficient stretch of his career in November 2009, while Baby has been hampered with a bum thumb, and a sore ankle, things that have impacted his lift and finishing/shooting ability.  I have no doubt that with more injury-free playing time, Baby's #s will return to their pre-injury levels, just like I have no doubt that Sheldon's 3 week stretch of brilliance was nothing more than a mirage.

TP. I'm a believer now

[tenaciousT]

Interesting topic.

I won't comment on Williams right now...other than to say I'd like to see him get some minutes as well. He may be needed in the playoffs.

My understanding of why Shelden isn't playing is largely because he has been slow in picking up rotations on both ends of the floor. To me that is understandable, as he is new.

I will leave it at that for now.

The only thing I'd like to add at the moment about Glen Davis is to say that Glen is playing inside more this season because that is where Doc wants him to play...at least that was the plan at the beginning of the year.

He is/was supposed to take more of a Leon Powe role, rebound and draw the defense while Sheed or KG played outside.

I haven't seen where Doc has changed that to any great degree.

I am amazed at how many people here have his back. I really am. Maybe it is just more of the supporters posting.

Glen has had his troubles (shooting inside) making the adjustment and we have seen that. The question is if and how long you give him to make that adjustment to make more shots around the hoop.

He also needs to continue to improve in the rebounding department as this team needs that. He has already improved, but I think he can do a bit more in that area.

As far as him taking significantly more outside shots, I don't think that is in the plan right now.

Doc has allowed him to take some lately, and that may be, in part, to help get him going.

I'd like to join in more, but I'm limited in time these days.

I like seeing how everyone works the issue out, though.

[Greenbean]

It's taken a lot longer to integrate BBD into the 2nd unit offense than alot of us expected. Every one thought he would simply duplicate his scoring output from last years playoffs off the bench. Unfortunately teams are either keying in on his jumper and taking it away or that shot is just not available with the personnel on the 2nd unit. I think it is a little bit of both.

That being said, BBD provides alot of energy , offensive rebounding, and sold defense to the 2nd unit. That should not go unnoticed. Shelden would not be an upgrade.

Why would anyone assume that a player would duplicate the same output playing 25 less min a game?

Duplicate was the wrong word. Obviously he wouldnt put up those numbers in less time. More to the point people were looking for the same offensive game from him and we havent seen it.

[Greenbean]

It's taken a lot longer to integrate BBD into the 2nd unit offense than alot of us expected. Every one thought he would simply duplicate his scoring output from last years playoffs off the bench. Unfortunately teams are either keying in on his jumper and taking it away or that shot is just not available with the personnel on the 2nd unit. I think it is a little bit of both.

That being said, BBD provides alot of energy , offensive rebounding, and sold defense to the 2nd unit. That should not go unnoticed. Shelden would not be an upgrade.

No; nobody thought that he'd simply duplicate his scoring output from last year's playoffs  Why?  Because he's not starting and playing 30+ minutes a night.

Teams are not keying on his jumper either--with the addition of 'Sheed, Doc decided to move Baby closer to the basket, meaning he's going to have to live off putback attempts, and the occasional post up/end-of-the-shot clock dump off to get his points.  It's not that he's had trouble integrating, it's that Doc asked him to play a whole new role this season.  To his credit, he's successfully changed his game from perimeter dependent to more inside centered. 

Personally, I'd love to see us incorporate Baby more along the lines of what he did last season, especially if it took some jumpshots and 3s away from 'Sheed.  Baby can be a very effective scorer, and a pick-and-pop with him and Nate could be a devestating combination.  Nobody sets picks like Baby, and he's going to be open all day with the way Nate can turn the corner on a pick.

I didnt say he had trouble integrating. I said the team had trouble integrating him. In addition to keying on his shot i also said that his shot is not there with the personnel on the court (ie Sheed taking away his shots) You basically restated my point after sarting your reply with "No".

Also, duplicated was a poor word choice I obviously understand hes playing less minutes.

Edit: By the way we completely agree before my reply turns this into an argument

[Greenbean]

Interesting topic.

I won't comment on Williams right now...other than to say I'd like to see him get some minutes as well. He may be needed in the playoffs.

My understanding of why Shelden isn't playing is largely because he has been slow in picking up rotations on both ends of the floor. To me that is understandable, as he is new.

I will leave it at that for now.

The only thing I'd like to add at the moment about Glen Davis is to say that Glen is playing inside more this season because that is where Doc wants him to play...at least that was the plan at the beginning of the year.

He is/was supposed to take more of a Leon Powe role, rebound and draw the defense while Sheed or KG played outside.

I haven't seen where Doc has changed that to any great degree.

I am amazed at how many people here have his back. I really am. Maybe it is just more of the supporters posting.

Glen has had his troubles (shooting inside) making the adjustment and we have seen that. The question is if and how long you give him to make that adjustment to make more shots around the hoop.

He also needs to continue to improve in the rebounding department as this team needs that. He has already improved, but I think he can do a bit more in that area.

As far as him taking significantly more outside shots, I don't think that is in the plan right now.

Doc has allowed him to take some lately, and that may be, in part, to help get him going.

I'd like to join in more, but I'm limited in time these days.

I like seeing how everyone works the issue out, though.

Last year they asked him to develop an outside shot. Now they are asking him to play inside more. It's no wonder Glen is being perceived as having an off year. He is kind of being yanked around. His post game is not as strong as his perimeter game. Hopefully we get a better role mapped out for the Baby for the playoffs. This guys has shown he can contribute when it counts.