Time to sit BBD and give Shelden Some Run

[RonnieG]

Time to sit Sheed more

Sheed has actually been playing significantly better in the last few weeks.  He is taking much fewer 3's, has been doing some damage in the post, and has a little pep in his step defensively.  So I would say the time to sit Sheed has past.

Sheed is also out of shape, old, and coming down to the stretch run.

Seems like the perfect time to be sitting him down a bit.

[Chris]

Time to sit Sheed more

Sheed has actually been playing significantly better in the last few weeks.  He is taking much fewer 3's, has been doing some damage in the post, and has a little pep in his step defensively.  So I would say the time to sit Sheed has past.

Sheed is also out of shape, old, and coming down to the stretch run.

Seems like the perfect time to be sitting him down a bit.

Well, I think he has actually been working himself into shape (he seems to have been on the Shaq regime all year), and is finally starting to look like a basketball player.  I would hate to cut back his minutes too much at this point, in case he regresses. 

Perhaps a little bit of a cutback is necessary, although that is already happening, because KG has been playing more minutes as he gets healthy again, but there is certainly no need to bring a 5th man into the bigs rotation.

Besides, he is going to be missing every other game down the stretch anyways, with all of the technicals he has.

[sk7326]

Davis needs to shoot the jumper more ... that is what gives him a chance to be an effective offensive player - not just cutting then getting his shot blocked because he has a vertical that Charles Oakley would consider poor. 

Shelden would play more I suspect if he did not have two catchers mitts for hands and did not shoot the midrange jumpers he likes poorly.  And he is not like Leon Powe who attracted foulers like flies and thus got to the line at a league-leading sort of pace.

[Fafnir]

Davis needs to shoot the jumper more ... that is what gives him a chance to be an effective offensive player - not just cutting then getting his shot blocked because he has a vertical that Charles Oakley would consider poor. 

I think BBD should be about 50/50 on jumpers and post shots. He's been closer to that this year than he has any of the previous two years.

[ssspence]

Shelden doesn't offer much else other than defensive rebounding though. BBD crashing the offensive glass is important, we need more offensive boards.

I think there's also an argument that we need more defensive boards. The Cs still give up too man offensive boards.

We do need more defensive boards, but I think our deficiency on the offensive glass is more critical. Especially from our bigs, add in the fact that BBD is better than Shelden in all the other aspects of the game....

Yeah, I really think the C's would be shooting themselves in the foot by taking a step back in every other phase of the game, just for a small improvement in rebounding.  Yes, it is a weakness, but putting Williams in might just mean there are fewer defensive rebounds to get, since they would be scoring more easily.

I agree and again am not arguing for williams. but as good as Baby has been in some aspects, he's taken a step back in others. punching his buddy has left him with a short window to round into form (no pun intended) -- we need to see progress and consistancy from him considering we're likely never going to see consistancy from either TA or Sheed.

[Fafnir]

Shelden doesn't offer much else other than defensive rebounding though. BBD crashing the offensive glass is important, we need more offensive boards.

I think there's also an argument that we need more defensive boards. The Cs still give up too man offensive boards.

We do need more defensive boards, but I think our deficiency on the offensive glass is more critical. Especially from our bigs, add in the fact that BBD is better than Shelden in all the other aspects of the game....

Yeah, I really think the C's would be shooting themselves in the foot by taking a step back in every other phase of the game, just for a small improvement in rebounding.  Yes, it is a weakness, but putting Williams in might just mean there are fewer defensive rebounds to get, since they would be scoring more easily.

I agree and again am not arguing for williams. but as good as Baby has been in some aspects, he's taken a step back in others. punching his buddy has left him with a short window to round into form (no pun intended) -- we need to see progress and consistancy from him considering we're likely never going to see consistancy from either TA or Sheed.

What areas do you think he's taken a step back in?

[EJPLAYA]

Davis needs to shoot the jumper more ... that is what gives him a chance to be an effective offensive player - not just cutting then getting his shot blocked because he has a vertical that Charles Oakley would consider poor. 

Shelden would play more I suspect if he did not have two catchers mitts for hands and did not shoot the midrange jumpers he likes poorly.  And he is not like Leon Powe who attracted foulers like flies and thus got to the line at a league-leading sort of pace.

Stop the mindless repeating of what others are telling you. It isn't true. Shelden had no issues earlier in the year catching the ball, anymore than Perk or BBD does. Even if he doesn't catch the ball in traffic as well it isn't any worse than BBD's constant offensive fouls setting picks or him getting blocked time and time again under the rim. BBD's turnover rate is just as high as Sheldens so it really doesn't matter how he gets them. Those offensive rebonds mean nothing when he can't do anything with them.

[Evantime34]

Davis needs to shoot the jumper more ... that is what gives him a chance to be an effective offensive player - not just cutting then getting his shot blocked because he has a vertical that Charles Oakley would consider poor. 

Shelden would play more I suspect if he did not have two catchers mitts for hands and did not shoot the midrange jumpers he likes poorly.  And he is not like Leon Powe who attracted foulers like flies and thus got to the line at a league-leading sort of pace.

Stop the mindless repeating of what others are telling you. It isn't true. Shelden had no issues earlier in the year catching the ball, anymore than Perk or BBD does. Even if he doesn't catch the ball in traffic as well it isn't any worse than BBD's constant offensive fouls setting picks or him getting blocked time and time again under the rim. BBD's turnover rate is just as high as Sheldens so it really doesn't matter how he gets them. Those offensive rebonds mean nothing when he can't do anything with them.

But he does do something with them most of the time. He is not blocked everytime he gets the ball.
Mindless repeating of what someone else tells you? As fans we are at the mercy of what reporters and broadcasters tell you when it comes to a player that doesn't play.
I don't think Doc would blindly pledge allegiance to Davis if Williams was outplaying him in practice. You have no basis to say Williams is better because you saw him play well at the start of the season. If he was better than Davis he would play more.

I know you are frustrated with Davis getting blocked but he is still better than Williams according to Doc. Docs opinion certainly carries more weight with me than yours does because he happens to coach the team.

To say that you want to see Davis replaced by someone who finishes better next year makes sense. To say that you want him to get replaced on the depth chart by Shelden because you assume a player that gets no burn is better does not.

[EJPLAYA]

Davis needs to shoot the jumper more ... that is what gives him a chance to be an effective offensive player - not just cutting then getting his shot blocked because he has a vertical that Charles Oakley would consider poor. 

Shelden would play more I suspect if he did not have two catchers mitts for hands and did not shoot the midrange jumpers he likes poorly.  And he is not like Leon Powe who attracted foulers like flies and thus got to the line at a league-leading sort of pace.

Stop the mindless repeating of what others are telling you. It isn't true. Shelden had no issues earlier in the year catching the ball, anymore than Perk or BBD does. Even if he doesn't catch the ball in traffic as well it isn't any worse than BBD's constant offensive fouls setting picks or him getting blocked time and time again under the rim. BBD's turnover rate is just as high as Sheldens so it really doesn't matter how he gets them. Those offensive rebonds mean nothing when he can't do anything with them.

But he does do something with them most of the time. He is not blocked everytime he gets the ball.
Mindless repeating of what someone else tells you? As fans we are at the mercy of what reporters and broadcasters tell you when it comes to a player that doesn't play.
I don't think Doc would blindly pledge allegiance to Davis if Williams was outplaying him in practice. You have no basis to say Williams is better because you saw him play well at the start of the season. If he was better than Davis he would play more.

I know you are frustrated with Davis getting blocked but he is still better than Williams according to Doc. Docs opinion certainly carries more weight with me than yours does because he happens to coach the team.

To say that you want to see Davis replaced by someone who finishes better next year makes sense. To say that you want him to get replaced on the depth chart by Shelden because you assume a player that gets no burn is better does not.

Maybe watch the game and decide for yourself?! I saw every minute he played this year and I can promise you that he wasn't fumbling the ball away every time he touched it. In fact I can remember quite a few times him catching it in traffic and going up and dunking the basketball. Other than a couple games over the first 25+ games he played he was very consistent offensively and defensively. The second unit was running very smoothly with him in there because he did a great job hustling on defense, rebounding the ball, and playing within himself. About 5-6 games prior to BBD returning he magically started getting no minutes. He hadn't been playing badly, he just was sat. I said at the time that this was likely done as to not create a controversy when BBD returned. Looks pretty prophetic to me...

Fact is that our second unit was smoother with him out there due to the skillset he brings. Yes BBD has more upside and does a couple things better. He doesn't however feel he needs to earn his minutes. Sticking Shelden in there while we have been struggling for a few games not only will mix things up, but likely light a fire under BBD. The BBD of last year is for sure the guy we want in that lineup. This year's BBD is the rookie that kept getting his minutes taken due to inconsistency. I just can't see why Doc feels no need to make him play better to keep them. As far as the way the team feels about him, there is likely a reason they had no problem throwing him out as trade bait for an underachieving PG from Charlotte.

[guava_wrench]

Davis needs to shoot the jumper more ... that is what gives him a chance to be an effective offensive player - not just cutting then getting his shot blocked because he has a vertical that Charles Oakley would consider poor. 

Shelden would play more I suspect if he did not have two catchers mitts for hands and did not shoot the midrange jumpers he likes poorly.  And he is not like Leon Powe who attracted foulers like flies and thus got to the line at a league-leading sort of pace.

Stop the mindless repeating of what others are telling you. It isn't true. Shelden had no issues earlier in the year catching the ball, anymore than Perk or BBD does. Even if he doesn't catch the ball in traffic as well it isn't any worse than BBD's constant offensive fouls setting picks or him getting blocked time and time again under the rim. BBD's turnover rate is just as high as Sheldens so it really doesn't matter how he gets them. Those offensive rebonds mean nothing when he can't do anything with them.

Were you watching the games earlier in the season? Shelden was horrible at catching the ball. It was obvious. Repeatedly dropping passes and having to retrieve them off the bounce. It was more predictable than a TA charge on a fast break.

To his credit, Shelden seems good at catching alley-oops and rebounds. It seems he can catch the ball above his head, but nothing thrown to his body or thrown on a bounce. Perhaps he has a concentration issue.

I'm not sure I've ever seen an NBA player as consistently bad at catching the ball as Shelden was early in the season when he was playing.

Still, the main reason for playing BBD over Shelden would be that the team feels the team is better with BBD. No single talent or deficiency dictates such decisions.

[Chris]

Fact is that our second unit was smoother with him out there due to the skillset he brings.

Could that have also been because they had a healthy Marquis Daniels running the show most of that time, rather than Eddie House or Tony Allen?  Or that for a lot of that time Wallace was actually hitting his 3's?

[ssspence]

Shelden doesn't offer much else other than defensive rebounding though. BBD crashing the offensive glass is important, we need more offensive boards.

I think there's also an argument that we need more defensive boards. The Cs still give up too man offensive boards.

We do need more defensive boards, but I think our deficiency on the offensive glass is more critical. Especially from our bigs, add in the fact that BBD is better than Shelden in all the other aspects of the game....

Yeah, I really think the C's would be shooting themselves in the foot by taking a step back in every other phase of the game, just for a small improvement in rebounding.  Yes, it is a weakness, but putting Williams in might just mean there are fewer defensive rebounds to get, since they would be scoring more easily.

I agree and again am not arguing for williams. but as good as Baby has been in some aspects, he's taken a step back in others. punching his buddy has left him with a short window to round into form (no pun intended) -- we need to see progress and consistancy from him considering we're likely never going to see consistancy from either TA or Sheed.

What areas do you think he's taken a step back in?

The conditioning we heard so much about this summer (martial arts?) has been lost due to his time off, so his agility (a strength) and lift (a weakness) are worse than usual. This has exacerbated his average-to-poor defensive rebounding, and rendered him very limited in the offensive paint. As discussed above his offensive rebounding has been a double-edged sword, and while he's had excellent flashes of dirty work on the defensive end, his otherwise effective help D (charges, blocks, etc) has not been as consistent.

Meanwhile, he was a pretty lethal shooter from the elbow last season, and that's disappeared. He hasn't been successfully catching, stepping into and draining that shot with any semblance of consistancy this year. Like a Sheed 3-pointer, I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw him make it. Unlike a Sheed 3-pointer, I'm hopeful that with practice and rythm it can improve.

Some of these elements are strengths of Glen's, others are weaknesses, but each seem to have taken a step backwards. Davis has had some very effective games, but he needs to be more heady and more consistant.  He's out of shape, yet more importantly it seems his attitude has taken a turn for the worse. We know about his off-court incidents. On the court and bench he looks less focused, more emotionally defensive and less content. I fear that he may be a "contract year" player. I hope not. He's shown the ability to rise to the big game. I'm hopeful that will show as we near the playoffs...

[guava_wrench]

Davis needs to shoot the jumper more ... that is what gives him a chance to be an effective offensive player - not just cutting then getting his shot blocked because he has a vertical that Charles Oakley would consider poor. 

Shelden would play more I suspect if he did not have two catchers mitts for hands and did not shoot the midrange jumpers he likes poorly.  And he is not like Leon Powe who attracted foulers like flies and thus got to the line at a league-leading sort of pace.

Stop the mindless repeating of what others are telling you. It isn't true. Shelden had no issues earlier in the year catching the ball, anymore than Perk or BBD does. Even if he doesn't catch the ball in traffic as well it isn't any worse than BBD's constant offensive fouls setting picks or him getting blocked time and time again under the rim. BBD's turnover rate is just as high as Sheldens so it really doesn't matter how he gets them. Those offensive rebonds mean nothing when he can't do anything with them.

But he does do something with them most of the time. He is not blocked everytime he gets the ball.
Mindless repeating of what someone else tells you? As fans we are at the mercy of what reporters and broadcasters tell you when it comes to a player that doesn't play.
I don't think Doc would blindly pledge allegiance to Davis if Williams was outplaying him in practice. You have no basis to say Williams is better because you saw him play well at the start of the season. If he was better than Davis he would play more.

I know you are frustrated with Davis getting blocked but he is still better than Williams according to Doc. Docs opinion certainly carries more weight with me than yours does because he happens to coach the team.

To say that you want to see Davis replaced by someone who finishes better next year makes sense. To say that you want him to get replaced on the depth chart by Shelden because you assume a player that gets no burn is better does not.

Maybe watch the game and decide for yourself?! I saw every minute he played this year and I can promise you that he wasn't fumbling the ball away every time he touched it. In fact I can remember quite a few times him catching it in traffic and going up and dunking the basketball. Other than a couple games over the first 25+ games he played he was very consistent offensively and defensively. The second unit was running very smoothly with him in there because he did a great job hustling on defense, rebounding the ball, and playing within himself. About 5-6 games prior to BBD returning he magically started getting no minutes. He hadn't been playing badly, he just was sat. I said at the time that this was likely done as to not create a controversy when BBD returned. Looks pretty prophetic to me...

Fact is that our second unit was smoother with him out there due to the skillset he brings. Yes BBD has more upside and does a couple things better. He doesn't however feel he needs to earn his minutes. Sticking Shelden in there while we have been struggling for a few games not only will mix things up, but likely light a fire under BBD. The BBD of last year is for sure the guy we want in that lineup. This year's BBD is the rookie that kept getting his minutes taken due to inconsistency. I just can't see why Doc feels no need to make him play better to keep them. As far as the way the team feels about him, there is likely a reason they had no problem throwing him out as trade bait for an underachieving PG from Charlotte.

If you missed the fact that he was fumbling and dropping the ball, that is your shortcoming. We were not having a mass delusion. Your lack of attentiveness is a far more reasonable explanation than the majority of us sharing a fantasy.

[Tai]

Yeah, again, this is what I touched on when I mentioned how people always wanted to hype on Bill Walker. Before, people would say "Doc hates rookies", and that surely Doc just didn't see the talent that Bill Walker could bring. Thing is, Bill's not a rookie anymore (neither is Giddens, although he's injured), and no one here seemed overly impressed when he did play, except for when he dunked.

And EJPLAYA, I don't know about sk, but I've seen Shelden fumble many passes that could've resulted in easy dunks. I won't claim it's the only reason Shelden isn't played over BBD, but it's just as much a weakness for Shelden as being blocked is for BBD. Yes, it is true. Don't downplay it just to make Shelden look better than he really is.

[guava_wrench]

Shelden doesn't offer much else other than defensive rebounding though. BBD crashing the offensive glass is important, we need more offensive boards.

I think there's also an argument that we need more defensive boards. The Cs still give up too man offensive boards.

We do need more defensive boards, but I think our deficiency on the offensive glass is more critical. Especially from our bigs, add in the fact that BBD is better than Shelden in all the other aspects of the game....

Yeah, I really think the C's would be shooting themselves in the foot by taking a step back in every other phase of the game, just for a small improvement in rebounding.  Yes, it is a weakness, but putting Williams in might just mean there are fewer defensive rebounds to get, since they would be scoring more easily.

I agree and again am not arguing for williams. but as good as Baby has been in some aspects, he's taken a step back in others. punching his buddy has left him with a short window to round into form (no pun intended) -- we need to see progress and consistancy from him considering we're likely never going to see consistancy from either TA or Sheed.

What areas do you think he's taken a step back in?

The conditioning we heard so much about this summer (martial arts?) has been lost due to his time off, so his agility (a strength) and lift (a weakness) are worse than usual. This has exacerbated his average-to-poor defensive rebounding, and rendered him very limited in the offensive paint. As discussed above his offensive rebounding has been a double-edged sword, and while he's had excellent flashes of dirty work on the defensive end, his otherwise effective help D (charges, blocks, etc) has not been as consistent.

Meanwhile, he was a pretty lethal shooter from the elbow last season, and that's disappeared. He hasn't been successfully catching, stepping into and draining that shot with any semblance of consistancy this year. Like a Sheed 3-pointer, I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw him make it. Unlike a Sheed 3-pointer, I'm hopeful that with practice and rythm it can improve.

Some of these elements are strengths of Glen's, others are weaknesses, but each seem to have taken a step backwards. Davis has had some very effective games, but he needs to be more heady and more consistant.  He's out of shape, yet more importantly it seems his attitude has taken a turn for the worse. We know about his off-court incidents. On the court and bench he looks less focused, more emotionally defensive and less content. I fear that he may be a "contract year" player. I hope not. He's shown the ability to rise to the big game. I'm hopeful that will show as we near the playoffs...

As much as I like BBD, I don't remember him ever being lethal with his midrange shot. He did have a good playoffs, but I remember him being very hit or miss (emphasis on the miss) with his open jumpers during the regular season.

I don't think we've ever had a large enough sample of his jumper being reliable to say he was ever an above average midrange shooter for a big man who actually takes that shot.