Years from now will we look back and think what could have been?

[lon3lytoaster]

Yesterday Roy and Faf asked who could have been gotten by Ainge

The answer today, Kevin Martin

Maybe Ainge just constantly lowballed Sactown

Maybe Ainge should have been more amenable to taking on bad contracts

Maybe Ainge should have included a first round pick or two

I don't know

I wasn't privy to the discussions

Neither were you

But Martin was available and Ainge could have done something and didn't

That last bit's a little contradictory, no? Who knows what Danny offered for Martin? Maybe he would of taken a bad contract, maybe he did offer some picks? To say he could of done something, but didn't is silly, especially when we have no idea what Sacramento wanted and what was offered from both sides.

[PLamb]

You think assist percentage and assists per 40 is important for a big man? Compared to shooting percentage, greater defensive ability, and better free throw shooting?  Talk about rebounding "trends" but they have shown the same rebounding prowess over three years. Keep digging in your heels if you'd like, but Landry is the better player and you know it.

Could Danny have sweetened the pot? Maybe, but the Kings wanted a front court player. What makes you think they wouldn't demand Perkins? Especially when they have the Rockets out there offering a better prospect than BBD.

You're angry because you've lost hope for this year and a trade was the way out of it, a way for the Celtics to still win. It doesn't look like it is going to happen, so of course its "someone's" fault.

Oh please

I just trying to defend a point of view which is that Danny said he wouldn't let the Big Three grow old together like the last Big Three and the one big opportunity he had to do something he is letting slip his fingers

Argue in the minor details all you want about this particular player's highly detailed stats all you want but the over riding point remains the same which is what you are p---ed about

There was a young difference making player available when just hours earlier you doubted my point because you said no young difference maker was going to be moved, yet now is going to be

Something could have been done so that what Danny said would not happen, will not happen

But apparently taking Danny to task for going against what he said he would do is not a popular thing around here

That's fine

Landry is a much better player, there, happy

Ray is also a much better player than McGrady and the package isn't that different and could have been sweetened so that it never came to the point of needing to have a team swoop in last second to get the deal done

Ainge is going against the very philosophy he said was so deadly when he took this job

For that, I can held him accountable and will

[BballTim]

Rebound percentage over three years Landry's is decreasing  Davis' increasing

Rebounds per 40 Landry's constantly decreasing Davis increasing

Assist percentage Davis better

Assist per 40 Davis better

Turnover percentage Landry better

Landry is a much more effective player under the basket, no doubt, scoring wise

He is also better at the FT line

But as a defensive presence and rebounding big Baby is a better player but has a different set of offensive skills than Landry and going forward I think will be just as effective a player

Remember my question was was the Allen/Davis/Scal package all that much worse than the McGrady/Landry/Dorsey package not Landry and Davis specifically

Yesterday Roy and Faf asked who could have been gotten by Ainge

The answer today, Kevin Martin

Maybe Ainge just constantly lowballed Sactown

Maybe Ainge should have been more amenable to taking on bad contracts

Maybe Ainge should have included a first round pick or two

I don't know

I wasn't privy to the discussions

Neither were you

But Martin was available and Ainge could have done something and didn't

  The only young player we have that's as good or better than Landry is Rondo. Should Danny have offered him?

[Fan from VT]

Rebound percentage over three years Landry's is decreasing  Davis' increasing

Rebounds per 40 Landry's constantly decreasing Davis increasing

Assist percentage Davis better

Assist per 40 Davis better

Turnover percentage Landry better

Landry is a much more effective player under the basket, no doubt, scoring wise

He is also better at the FT line

But as a defensive presence and rebounding big Baby is a better player but has a different set of offensive skills than Landry and going forward I think will be just as effective a player

Remember my question was was the Allen/Davis/Scal package all that much worse than the McGrady/Landry/Dorsey package not Landry and Davis specifically

Yesterday Roy and Faf asked who could have been gotten by Ainge

The answer today, Kevin Martin

Maybe Ainge just constantly lowballed Sactown

Maybe Ainge should have been more amenable to taking on bad contracts

Maybe Ainge should have included a first round pick or two

I don't know

I wasn't privy to the discussions

Neither were you

But Martin was available and Ainge could have done something and didn't

I think you may have to deal with the reality that perhaps Ainge DID try something, but that the fact Landry is a way better player than Davis (a fact obvious to every non-C's fan and a few C's fans), and was simply a better deal than anything Danny had to offer.

[Roy Hobbs]

But Martin was available and Ainge could have done something and didn't

You have absolutely no evidence to support that claim.  We have absolutely no idea one way or the other whether Danny could have done something; any claim to the contrary has little more weight than a blatant lie.

[slamtheking]

I'm leaving my normal prose to write the following:

Danny Ainge often looks back at the years after the 1986 Boston Celtics championship and discusses how he would have done things differently. Lenny Bias passed in 1986 and Kevin McHake broke his foot in 1987 and instead of breaking up the Big Three, Red Auerbach, always a man of supreme loyalty, stayed loyal to those that got him there and road it out until the end.

Danny Ainge has on many occasions said he would have done things differently. His view has been that Red should have traded Kevin and Chief while they still had value around the league and extended the championship run with other talent. This week in the first test of Ainge's own Big Three era and loyalty it appears as if he might well be taking a very similar road as his most esteemed predecessor.

It appears that during the exact moment when Danny Ainge should have been following his own advice and trading Ray Allen when he is at his most valuable, a massive expiring contract that still has a high skill level during a recession and huge cost cutting time across the league, Danny could pull the trigger. And as the title of this thread stipulates, years from now will we look back and think what could have been? Years from now will it be team president Rajon Rondo sitting in Danny's office second guessing the wisdom of the actions Danny Ainge takes over the next 24 hours?

I don't get the move(s) that have been rumored thus far or the news from David Aldridge that Ainge is going to stand pat except for this small(no pun intended, okay maybe a little)Nate Robinson trade which is going to go a long way towards making sure Danny Ainge is married to the Big Three until 2012. Without moving the first of the most movable of the Big Three at the most opportune time to move him, Danny has relegated this team to having to ride it out trying, maybe beyond their own aging capabilities to win with this group.

I think it will be seen in the future as a huge mistake. Could trading Ray Allen have cost this team a championship this year? Sure. But they very well might be incapable of winning it all this year anyway, so who cares. Danny Ainge obviously feels otherwise. My eyes, tell me differently. This team needed a younger bunch of veins pumping young blood into this team and the opportunity for that us just about gone.

With Ray still a Celtic at 3:00PM EST tomorrow, that means he will be re-signed in the off season, back for us all to watch erode before our very eyes or he will not be back without anything to show for it. Paul Pierce will never be traded. Kevin Garnett, his gigantic contract and his bum knee has rendered him untradeable. 

Get used to it Celtic fans. What you see is probably what you get for at least the next 2 1/2 years and if a decade from now this team is waddling through the nether lands that is NBA mediocrity, we can all look back to now and the next 18 hours as the reason for it.

We might look back at this time and think “what if Danny traded Ray for _____” but there’s a couple of items affecting him to take into consideration.
1.   There’s still some opinions in the organization that the current team can still win.  As such, it’s premature to just blow up the team by moving vets to title contenders looking to get over the top of the competition.  Consider that for a moment.  Danny’s trade option right now is to build the C’s up to make a run at the championship.  He doesn’t really have the option to unload Ray, PP, KG and/or Sheed to other contenders for young players and picks ala Minnesota and Seattle in 2008.   If he was truly able to say, “we’re really toast with this roster, time to throw in the towel”, he could move those players and acquire quite a few assets to start rebuilding around Rondo and Perk.  
2.   The new CBA to be negotiated very soon.  The assumptions are that the cap will be lower and harder to exceed.  The luxury tax level will be lower and have a more-severe penalty for exceeding it.  As such, longer contracts for high dollars (relative to player production/worth) have to be reconsidered.  Sure, taking on a contract that expires the same year as KG and Sheed might sound reasonable until having to consider the CBA in effect at that point and the prospect of having a highly paid Rondo, Perk, KG and still-well-paid Sheed, PP and Ray (again, painted into a corner talent and finance-wise means having to resign Ray and PP) will be daunting.

[PLamb]

But Martin was available and Ainge could have done something and didn't

You have absolutely no evidence to support that claim.  We have absolutely no idea one way or the other whether Danny could have done something; any claim to the contrary has little more weight than a blatant lie.

My Claim: "Martin was available and Ainge could have done something and didn't"
Your Claim: "the number of impact players he could have traded for was very small, and likely, zero."

Truth: Martin is being traded to a team that at the last minute came in with an offer and will be trading for Kevin Martin

From Marc Stein at ESPN:

On orders from team management, Martin was pulled from the second half of the Kings' game Wednesday night at Golden State in anticipation of the fast-developing trade with Houston, sources said.

So which claim is closer to the truth and which closer to lying

[Brickowski]

Well, there are plenty of reasons for not doing anything. Other teams may have been uncooperative, such as by insisting that the Celtics take back overpaid trash.  I'm delighted, for example, that neither Nocioni or Salmons will be a Celtic tomorrow.

But the fantasy that this core group can still win another championship is not one of them.

[Evantime34]

But Martin was available and Ainge could have done something and didn't

You have absolutely no evidence to support that claim.  We have absolutely no idea one way or the other whether Danny could have done something; any claim to the contrary has little more weight than a blatant lie.

My Claim: "Martin was available and Ainge could have done something and didn't"
Your Claim: "the number of impact players he could have traded for was very small, and likely, zero."

Truth: Martin is being traded to a team that at the last minute came in with an offer and will be trading for Kevin Martin

From Marc Stein at ESPN:

On orders from team management, Martin was pulled from the second half of the Kings' game Wednesday night at Golden State in anticipation of the fast-developing trade with Houston, sources said.

So which claim is closer to the truth and which closer to lying

The fact that the best post player we had to offer was Baby. Moving Perk is a terrible idea, other teams don't want Sheed. A post player was what the Kings wanted.

Landry is better than Glen Davis. If we offered Ray and Glen Davis they probably would consider it. When the Rockets offered Landry and T-Mac the Kings accepted it.

Now the Rockets also took on salaries like Thomas that from all indications the Celtics are not willing to take on. So even though I wish we got him all signs point to us not having the chips to do it.

[PBX]

The trade that might have been available was Ray for Hinrich+Salmons+Thomas. This would improve the Celtics this season: Thomas would be the 3rd best big and a very good fit (mobile and athletic defensive minded big man with good rebounding) + Hinrich would be a huge improvement over House or Robinson (defense+ball handling+outside shooting) + Salmons is now a better defender and scorer than Ray - and, with some luck, would keep the team contending for the next 2 seasons.

Also good for the future: no contracts running past 2012, Thomas could become a 3rd piece to join to Rondo and Perkins.

Of course, the reason for not making this trade may have been financial - I never understood why people assume the Celtics would be willing to take salary this trade deadline.  
 
That said, Ainge absolutely needs to trade Pierce next season, even if the Celtics somehow end this one with the title.

[Roy Hobbs]

But Martin was available and Ainge could have done something and didn't

You have absolutely no evidence to support that claim.  We have absolutely no idea one way or the other whether Danny could have done something; any claim to the contrary has little more weight than a blatant lie.

My Claim: "Martin was available and Ainge could have done something and didn't"
Your Claim: "the number of impact players he could have traded for was very small, and likely, zero."

Truth: Martin is being traded to a team that at the last minute came in with an offer and will be trading for Kevin Martin

From Marc Stein at ESPN:

On orders from team management, Martin was pulled from the second half of the Kings' game Wednesday night at Golden State in anticipation of the fast-developing trade with Houston, sources said.

So which claim is closer to the truth and which closer to lying

In other words, you made a definitive statement that you have no way of knowing the truth of, and I made a qualified statement that fits with the facts as we know them. 

Danny's options to add an impact player were, at best, limited.  I don't think the fact that Sacramento just traded Kevin Martin for a better player than we have available suggests in any way that Danny rested on his laurels.

[slamtheking]

The trade that might have been available was Ray for Hinrich+Salmons+Thomas. This would improve the Celtics this season: Thomas would be the 3rd best big and a very good fit (mobile and athletic defensive minded big man with good rebounding) + Hinrich would be a huge improvement over House or Robinson (defense+ball handling+outside shooting) + Salmons is now a better defender and scorer than Ray - and, with some luck, would keep the team contending for the next 2 seasons.

Also good for the future: no contracts running past 2012, Thomas could become a 3rd piece to join to Rondo and Perkins.

Of course, the reason for not making this trade may have been financial - I never understood why people assume the Celtics would be willing to take salary this trade deadline.  
 
That said, Ainge absolutely needs to trade Pierce next season, even if the Celtics somehow end this one with the title.

That's very unlikely unless Danny shifts into a full "fire sale" mode and is trades him to a contender that figures PP will get them over the top and they're willing to trade decent young players with potential and draft picks.  If PP gets trades, KG and Sheed must also be on the trading block but likely to go nowhere due to their contracts and the impending new CBA.

[BballTim]

But Martin was available and Ainge could have done something and didn't

You have absolutely no evidence to support that claim.  We have absolutely no idea one way or the other whether Danny could have done something; any claim to the contrary has little more weight than a blatant lie.

My Claim: "Martin was available and Ainge could have done something and didn't"
Your Claim: "the number of impact players he could have traded for was very small, and likely, zero."

Truth: Martin is being traded to a team that at the last minute came in with an offer and will be trading for Kevin Martin

From Marc Stein at ESPN:

On orders from team management, Martin was pulled from the second half of the Kings' game Wednesday night at Golden State in anticipation of the fast-developing trade with Houston, sources said.

So which claim is closer to the truth and which closer to lying

  Again, though, if the Kings wanted Rondo in the deal should Danny have pulled the trigger?

[Chris]

I really am not that broken up over missing out on Martin.  I was surprised by the lack of value Sacramento got for him, but I think he was a high risk investment anyways.  Martin is generally a 60 game per year player.  While I wouldn't have disappointed by a trade for him, I wouldn't have been that excited either...well, other than the fact that they were actually making a move in general.

I still have hope that Danny is shooting higher than Martin.

[droopdog7]

Forget about who is better between BBD and Landry (even though the answer is obvious).  Most here were trying to get Martin for just Ray.  And do you think that Martin is a good enough player for Ray (and his contract) and BBD?  I don't.