Years from now will we look back and think what could have been?

[Neurotic Guy]

No regrets. None.

We'll see how fickle this blog is if the C's turn it up a notch over the next few games.  Earlier this season, the C's spent time atop every power ranking out there.  Folks were talking championship. The Big 3 were healthy a few months ago, now they are not.  2 months from now, they might be.  

Pessimism does nothing for me. I want the C's to be perrenial championship contenders, but if not, I'll continue to construct hopeful/wishful scenarios just as I did during the 22 year hiatus.  Alas, one of those scenarios came true and I'll be forever  grateful for that.

[Spilling Green Dye]

PLamb, I logged in specifically to give you a TP for a great  post.  I too think this will be a watershed moment for the team, and a mistake if the opportunity is wasted.

So far I've seen only two types of responses to your post:

1)  The real issue was KG's knee.  

In fact, this has little to do with PLamb's post.  His post is already accounting for the bum knee, and is assuming it will stay that way.  So the question becomes, why wasn't something done with such a major chip in hand (Ray's contract)?

2)  We may never know what trades were available.

You may not know the specifics, but we see what the market is yielding.  So far, and I'm sure there will be more, Jamison and Butler have been traded for cap space.  The fact is that players ARE available for cap space.  McGrady is on the move b/c of his contract, and I'd wager that there are half a dozen players who are a good young fit for this team that would have been available if Danny made the right offer with Ray.  

Ultimately, I think it will be viewed as a mistake if we don't trade Ray.  And I think we will look back as it as such.  His contract, and his character, are a big chip to let fall off the table.

[FatjohnReturns]

I trust Ainge.

[Fafnir]

So you'd be okay with Danny giving up on this year and trading Ray for Jordan Hill and some picks?

I don't think most C's fans would be, and I know PP/Rondo/KG/etc wouldn't be.

[dlpin]

PLamb, I logged in specifically to give you a TP for a great  post.  I too think this will be a watershed moment for the team, and a mistake if the opportunity is wasted.

So far I've seen only two types of responses to your post:

1)  The real issue was KG's knee.  

In fact, this has little to do with PLamb's post.  His post is already accounting for the bum knee, and is assuming it will stay that way.  So the question becomes, why wasn't something done with such a major chip in hand (Ray's contract)?

2)  We may never know what trades were available.

You may not know the specifics, but we see what the market is yielding.  So far, and I'm sure there will be more, Jamison and Butler have been traded for cap space.  The fact is that players ARE available for cap space.  McGrady is on the move b/c of his contract, and I'd wager that there are half a dozen players who are a good young fit for this team that would have been available if Danny made the right offer with Ray.  

Ultimately, I think it will be viewed as a mistake if we don't trade Ray.  And I think we will look back as it as such.  His contract, and his character, are a big chip to let fall off the table.

The point is this:
No one that Ray could be traded for make up for KG's knees. Not Jamison, not Kevin Martin, not Monta Ellis, not John Salmons and not Caron Butler.


What would happen if we did any these trades, though, would be taking on large, long term deals. These sorts of large, long term deals that don't create a contender are exactly why NY is what it is.

If this team is done, we are better off letting everyone expire and going for one of the big names potentially available in 2012 than we would be if we got Kevin Martin or any other good but not great player that would tie up the cap for years, making sure we are a 40 win team for half a decade.

[Redz]

PLamb, I logged in specifically to give you a TP for a great  post.  I too think this will be a watershed moment for the team, and a mistake if the opportunity is wasted.

So far I've seen only two types of responses to your post:

1)  The real issue was KG's knee.  

In fact, this has little to do with PLamb's post.  His post is already accounting for the bum knee, and is assuming it will stay that way.  So the question becomes, why wasn't something done with such a major chip in hand (Ray's contract)?

2)  We may never know what trades were available.

You may not know the specifics, but we see what the market is yielding.  So far, and I'm sure there will be more, Jamison and Butler have been traded for cap space.  The fact is that players ARE available for cap space.  McGrady is on the move b/c of his contract, and I'd wager that there are half a dozen players who are a good young fit for this team that would have been available if Danny made the right offer with Ray.  

Ultimately, I think it will be viewed as a mistake if we don't trade Ray.  And I think we will look back as it as such.  His contract, and his character, are a big chip to let fall off the table.

The point is this:
No one that Ray could be traded for make up for KG's knees. Not Jamison, not Kevin Martin, not Monta Ellis, not John Salmons and not Caron Butler.


What would happen if we did any these trades, though, would be taking on large, long term deals. These sorts of large, long term deals that don't create a contender are exactly why NY is what it is.

If this team is done, we are better off letting everyone expire and going for one of the big names potentially available in 2012 than we would be if we got Kevin Martin or any other good but not great player that would tie up the cap for years, making sure we are a 40 win team for half a decade.

Well said.  It's very tough watching KG be a non-presence out there, and teams not being intimidated by the aura of his past, but we may have to get used to it.

[BballTim]

I personally am not privy to the Celtics war room, as just about everyuone here is not

Therefore as much as you can ask me what deals did Danny turn down or what players were or were not available I can just as accurately ask why didn't Danny seek out a trade actively enough

Yes, there are no reports that he actually turned down any trade and many rumors of players being traded didn't happen but Danny just as actively denied having any conversations with anyone

So neither I nor anyone else here can really say definitively they know that something was or was not available or offered to Danny or that he turned down something or that he didn't actively seek hard enough for a certain trade that could have been there

Because no one knows for sure

So before throwing cold water on my post, remember you know as much as I do as to what really went on this trading season because nothing said or reported can actually be verified

But what I do know is the prime timing opportunity for something to happen was now

And nothing happened

  The one thing I know for sure is that people have been suggesting Ray trades since the summer and, aside from the fact that many of the targets aren't really available, most of them make us at least slightly (if not greatly) less competitve in the present yet don't make us contenders in the future. Many of them were bad in the short term and the long term.

  First of all it's not really true that our window was closed in 87 or 88. Secondly, I think Danny's seeing the dilemna from a different side. Having a contender is a rare thing. Breaking it up to be better during the aftermath isn't a great idea. Danny had an idea for the kind of trade he wanted to make but that trade never presented itself.

  Lastly, people are premature in their prognostications. This team isn't definitely dead. KG isn't definitely cooked. And we could still do a sign and trade, re-sign Ray and trade him during the season or trade Paul and/or KG at some point. If Danny doesn't make a big splash before the deadline, it's far too early to say that we're just going to watch all three players come off the books with no moves forthcoming.

[Roy Hobbs]

I personally am not privy to the Celtics war room, as just about everyuone here is not

Therefore as much as you can ask me what deals did Danny turn down or what players were or were not available I can just as accurately ask why didn't Danny seek out a trade actively enough

Yes, there are no reports that he actually turned down any trade and many rumors of players being traded didn't happen but Danny just as actively denied having any conversations with anyone

So neither I nor anyone else here can really say definitively they know that something was or was not available or offered to Danny or that he turned down something or that he didn't actively seek hard enough for a certain trade that could have been there

Because no one knows for sure

So before throwing cold water on my post, remember you know as much as I do as to what really went on this trading season because nothing said or reported can actually be verified

But what I do know is the prime timing opportunity for something to happen was now

And nothing happened

I just don't understand how a GM can be blamed for not making a good trade, if there were no good trade opportunities.

There's little doubt that Danny could have traded Ray for *somebody*.  However, I think the number of impact players he could have traded for was very small, and likely, zero.  That being the case, I can't really wring my hands about a wasted opportunity, since in all likelihood, there was no opportunity in the first place.

If Amare and JRich get traded for J. O'Neal, and it turns out that Danny didn't make an offer, I'll change my mind.  Otherwise, it seems like Danny did due diligence on all the big names that were reportedly on the market this year.

Great minds do not always have to think alike

I see it differently

Danny's constant denials and even going public about a meeting with Ray and his wife could have sent a very bad message around the league regarding Danny's asking price and had opportunities closed to him

He might have not made phone calls he could have

You believe he did his due diligence

I think publicly he set a bad tone for making things available and could have hurt opportunities that might have opened up

We will never know for sure

You think other GMs said "Oh, Ray Allen must not be available since Danny told the local media that he wasn't really looking to do anything"?

I'm pretty sure that every GM in the league speaks in "GM speak" to their fanbase and media, and I doubt any of those GMs take media reports to heart.  It's not like Philly wanted to give us Iguodala, but chose not to because of something Danny said in public.

[BballTim]

PLamb, I logged in specifically to give you a TP for a great  post.  I too think this will be a watershed moment for the team, and a mistake if the opportunity is wasted.

So far I've seen only two types of responses to your post:

1)  The real issue was KG's knee.  

In fact, this has little to do with PLamb's post.  His post is already accounting for the bum knee, and is assuming it will stay that way.  So the question becomes, why wasn't something done with such a major chip in hand (Ray's contract)?

  I don't know that the Celts are assuming that KG's knee won't improve. Danny might not  be ready to throw in the towel based on some fairly uninformed guesses about KG's health.

[Reyquila]

WE know nothing about what goes on inside the top brass'es minds. We can only speculate. Im with Plamb 100%. For them its a business to make money; not to lose money. They must have investigated all there was to investigate. We just didnt have the tradeable assets needed to make a significant trade. In this site, about 95% of the trades posters posted involved Scal. Thats as bad as it gets when we, ourselves, \  did have to offer Scal as trade bait. Maybe Danny missed somthing, maybe, probably not. They are the ones that make the decisions and put up the money. Its easy for us to say who should we get. They know who is good and who is not and the asking price; we dont.Those guys know more about the business of basketball than we do. They bought a 3 year opportunity window to win a flag. We won it on the first try. They didnt say we would win 3 in a row. They said we have 3 years to jell and win one. They delivered. Unfortunately, our big 3 were at the top of their form; age caught up with them; maybe faster than we expected, but such is life. They promised a flag in 3 years; they delivered. Anything more would have been frosting on the cake. We got spoiled by the sudden success. Well, amigos, the ride is over. We have to start rebuilding for our next window - I have no idea when the next one will come. But it wont be this year - and you can take that to the bank. Unless we trade for Lebron tomorrow. And maybe he wont be enough. lol

[Roy Hobbs]

WE know nothing about what goes on inside the top brass'es minds. We can only speculate. Im with Plamb 100%. For them its a business to make money; not to lose money. They must have investigated all there was to investigate. We just didnt have the tradeable assets needed to make a significant trade. In this site, about 95% of the trades posters posted involved Scal. Thats as bad as it gets when we, ourselves, \  did have to offer Scal as trade bait. Maybe Danny missed somthing, maybe, probably not. They are the ones that make the decisions and put up the money. Its easy for us to say who should we get. They know who is good and who is not and the asking price; we dont.Those guys know more about the business of basketball than we do. They bought a 3 year opportunity window to win a flag. We won it on the first try. They didnt say we would win 3 in a row. They said we have 3 years to jell and win one. They delivered. Unfortunately, our big 3 were at the top of their form; age caught up with them; maybe faster than we expected, but such is life. They promised a flag in 3 years; they delivered. Anything more would have been frosting on the cake. We got spoiled by the sudden success. Well, amigos, the ride is over. We have to start rebuilding for our next window - I have no idea when the next one will come. But it wont be this year - and you can take that to the bank. Unless we trade for Lebron tomorrow. And maybe he wont be enough. lol

Nice post, Rey, although I took Plamb to be saying the exact opposite.  You seem to recognize that there very well may not have been a good trade for Danny to make.  That's not how I read the original post in this thread, which seemed to be blaming Danny for not pulling a magical rabbit out of a hat that probably didn't exist in the first place.

[droopdog7]

I see no problem whatsoever with da not trading Ray.  None. The reason that he may not trade Ray is because he isn't ready to give up on the season. I am not either. At the end of this year, we release some financial stress by letting Ray walk (instead of taking on bad contracts for him).

I think next year, when we will be completely sure that the window is closed, we will be in better position to trade pp. Because by then, we won't be reduced to trading with teams looking for cap relief. Because we will no longer be contenders, we should be able to trade pp to a contending team looking for a boost.

And then, and only then, will we be able to start the rebuilding process.

[GreenFaith1819]

Well, whatever happens I trust Danny...and will still be wearing green like everyone else here Forever.

I just love bragging to LA bandwagoners about our 17 (18 in June?) Rings...they'll wine and say: "Yeah but most of those came in the 50's and 60's.", lol...don't matter. They still count.

The ride has been fun, but I just don't think it's over yet..

[snively]

Looking at the recently breaking trades, our best shot at adding major talent was the Jamison/Butler trade, and unfortunately all that talent was concentrated at the positions PP and KG currently occupy.

Everything else was much pricier. Kevin Martin cost Landry, Iggy cost more than anyone was able to give, Camby cost two solid rotation players.

Unfortunately, all we have to offer is Ray's expiring contract and late draft picks.  Thus far, that hasn't been enough.

[Spilling Green Dye]

PLamb, I logged in specifically to give you a TP for a great  post.  I too think this will be a watershed moment for the team, and a mistake if the opportunity is wasted.

So far I've seen only two types of responses to your post:

1)  The real issue was KG's knee.  

In fact, this has little to do with PLamb's post.  His post is already accounting for the bum knee, and is assuming it will stay that way.  So the question becomes, why wasn't something done with such a major chip in hand (Ray's contract)?

2)  We may never know what trades were available.

You may not know the specifics, but we see what the market is yielding.  So far, and I'm sure there will be more, Jamison and Butler have been traded for cap space.  The fact is that players ARE available for cap space.  McGrady is on the move b/c of his contract, and I'd wager that there are half a dozen players who are a good young fit for this team that would have been available if Danny made the right offer with Ray.  

Ultimately, I think it will be viewed as a mistake if we don't trade Ray.  And I think we will look back as it as such.  His contract, and his character, are a big chip to let fall off the table.

The point is this:
No one that Ray could be traded for make up for KG's knees. Not Jamison, not Kevin Martin, not Monta Ellis, not John Salmons and not Caron Butler.


What would happen if we did any these trades, though, would be taking on large, long term deals. These sorts of large, long term deals that don't create a contender are exactly why NY is what it is.

If this team is done, we are better off letting everyone expire and going for one of the big names potentially available in 2012 than we would be if we got Kevin Martin or any other good but not great player that would tie up the cap for years, making sure we are a 40 win team for half a decade.

KG's knee has nothing to do with PLamb's post, nor mine.  The idea of trading Ray Allen wasn't to get a piece to win a championship.  It was to acquire a young player who would otherwise be un-acquirable.  No one move would ensure the Celtics to be a championship team in future years.. you can only make one move at a time and hope the sum of the moves results in a championship caliber team.  So far, our chance to make that one big move seems to be passing.