Ray Is Better than Kevin Martin.

[Pucaccia]

If Ray was on the Kings he would be getting better stats than Martin.  If Martin came to the Celtics, he would be lost. There would be lower production coming out of the shooting guards spot.  Ray does great with the odd circumstance, Martin or any other quality player would have a hard time fitting in.
Celt's should hold off on trading Ray.  Sign him to a discount after the season(he already acknowledged he would take a cut). Use his $19.5M slot to take a shot at an elite player.
The Celts would be better off. You get a to keep Ray and get a good player in Free Agency.

[crownsy]

If Ray was on the Kings he would be getting better stats than Martin.  If Martin came to the Celtics, he would be lost. There would be lower production coming out of the shooting guards spot.  Ray does great with the odd circumstance, Martin or any other quality player would have a hard time fitting in.
Celt's should hold off on trading Ray.  Sign him to a discount after the season(he already acknowledged he would take a cut). Use his $19.5M slot to take a shot at an elite player.
The Celts would be better off. You get a to keep Ray and get a good player in Free Agency.

1. your entire analysis is incredibly pro-ray allen conjuncture with no backup beyond "cause i said so". Even if true that martin is not a good SG and is only good due to his team, the main point of such a trade would be to get younger at the 2. Ray is soon to be 35.

2. We can't do that. no matter what happens with ray allen, we will still be over the hard cap. It's not a situation where we just get rid of his contract and get that money to offer. We will have the MLE and min contracts this summer, outside of bird rights.

[Chris]

I am not sure if he is better than Martin (and he certainly won't be in a couple years), but Martin's injury history really scares me.  I would still make a trade for him, but would not give up much more than Allen, and would not take on bad contracts (beyond Nocioni, who I think would help this team, regardless of Miller) to bring him on.

[ManUp]

I am not sure if he is better than Martin (and he certainly won't be in a couple years), but Martin's injury history really scares me.  I would still make a trade for him, but would not give up much more than Allen, and would not take on bad contracts (beyond Nocioni, who I think would help this team, regardless of Miller) to bring him on.

I know what you mean. The questionable health and defense have really got me thinking. I'm starting to feel like we shouldn't trade Ray for anyone other than Iguodala.

[LarBrd33]

The Ray I saw in our championship season wasn't the player I saw playing in Seattle.  He had already slipped.  He got the job done and filled his role, but he was already past his prime.  2 years later, he's still effective, but I have reason to believe he has slipped even more.    Considering history says most shooting guards die at the age of 35, I have don't have much reason to believe that Ray is going to do anything other than slip further in the next couple years.  People bring up Reggie, but Reggie in his last 3 years averaged 13 points on 43% shooting... he wasn't lighting the world on fire as an old role player.   Unless you think Ray is going to set a new precedent... I think it's safe to say a guy like Kevin Martin will be better in the future.   Right now, a healthy Martin might already be better than Ray.  I think it's more likely that Martin's FG% rises when surrounded by the talent the Celtics have (with a point guard like Rondo) and that old Ray would struggle carrying an offensive load in Sacramento.  Our team has done a good job at hiding his slippage by sending him around screens and getting him wide open shots... a lot like Reggie in his old days.

[RAcker]

I love this blog for exactly this kind of debate.  Imagine how Danny Ainge feels.  Should I?  Shouldn't I? 

[Fan from VT]

Have to disagree with the OP.

The only knocks on Martin are

-Defense (as with Ray)

-Injuries (Majorly scary).


*He's been a net + the past two years prior to this one. These stats are very fluky, so it's not like he's been a net - his entire career.

*Fitting in. Subjectively, I can't think of a better Ray replacement, when healthy. He does not demand dribbles or attention and is excellent at catch and shoot. Isn't that what you want? The scouting knock was that he didn't do enough individually on bad Sac teams.

*Allen's usage rate was up around 25-27 when he was "the man" on bad sonics teams. Then it dropped to 20 on the C's, down to 19 now. Martin, as "the man" had usage rates around 20-25 at 23.7 this year, not that far from the Ray range, especially Ray "the man" compared to Martin "the Man"; not like he's up at the 27.5 like Monta Ellis.

*Martin's PER (a rough but pretty good measure of adjusted offensive efficiency) flucutates between 19-21, at 17.8 this year so far. Ray's best year was 22.28 before a 21.7, then a 16.6, 17.3, then a 13.93 this year. That's really really low, significantly lower than "efficient Ray" from his first two years in Boston

*For his career, Ray nets 1.28 points per fg attempt (this year it's 1.27), while Martin is at 1.49 points per fg attempt for his career.


healthy Martin is the better player right now and he'd be a great fit. Only questions are:
can we get him?
is his contract ok long term?
defense?
health?

which are pretty significant questions. but ability and fit are not.

[Pucaccia]

If Ray was on the Kings he would be getting better stats than Martin.  If Martin came to the Celtics, he would be lost. There would be lower production coming out of the shooting guards spot.  Ray does great with the odd circumstance, Martin or any other quality player would have a hard time fitting in.
Celt's should hold off on trading Ray.  Sign him to a discount after the season(he already acknowledged he would take a cut). Use his $19.5M slot to take a shot at an elite player.
The Celts would be better off. You get a to keep Ray and get a good player in Free Agency.

1. your entire analysis is incredibly pro-ray allen conjuncture with no backup beyond "cause i said so". Even if true that martin is not a good SG and is only good due to his team, the main point of such a trade would be to get younger at the 2. Ray is soon to be 35.

2. We can't do that. no matter what happens with ray allen, we will still be over the hard cap. It's not a situation where we just get rid of his contract and get that money to offer. We will have the MLE and min contracts this summer, outside of bird rights.

Thanks for the mini lecture.  My point is, Ray works within the system (Or lack of). Martin or any other young dynamo would have a harder time fitting in.  I don't want to give away Allen for just the sake of a younger player.  I don't think the Celts style would not make a younger alternative better.  And Yes, I think Allen is better than Martin "Just because I say so"

[crownsy]

If Ray was on the Kings he would be getting better stats than Martin.  If Martin came to the Celtics, he would be lost. There would be lower production coming out of the shooting guards spot.  Ray does great with the odd circumstance, Martin or any other quality player would have a hard time fitting in.
Celt's should hold off on trading Ray.  Sign him to a discount after the season(he already acknowledged he would take a cut). Use his $19.5M slot to take a shot at an elite player.
The Celts would be better off. You get a to keep Ray and get a good player in Free Agency.

1. your entire analysis is incredibly pro-ray allen conjuncture with no backup beyond "cause i said so". Even if true that martin is not a good SG and is only good due to his team, the main point of such a trade would be to get younger at the 2. Ray is soon to be 35.

2. We can't do that. no matter what happens with ray allen, we will still be over the hard cap. It's not a situation where we just get rid of his contract and get that money to offer. We will have the MLE and min contracts this summer, outside of bird rights.

Thanks for the mini lecture.  My point is, Ray works within the system (Or lack of). Martin or any other young dynamo would have a harder time fitting in.  I don't want to give away Allen for just the sake of a younger player.  I don't think the Celts style would not make a younger alternative better.  And Yes, I think Allen is better than Martin "Just because I say so"

IT wasen't a lecture, it was a break down of your post.

I love ray allen, but if your going to tell me that he is better, at this point in his career, than kevin martin who is a fantastic young SG, your going to have to bring more to the table then a one sided, unsupported analysis. because it isn't true.

5-7 years ago, absolutely. It's also quite possible, nay, probable that kevin martin will never have the kind of career ray has had.

 That does not change the cold, hard reality that AS OF THIS MOMENT Kevin martin is better than ray allen. Barring the invention of time travel in the near future, father time will see that the fact remains unchanged.

And, the second point pretty much destroys your hypo doesn't it? I don't see why it was a lecture to point out your gary T level wrongness on your salary cap anyalsis.

 The only reason the second part of your post is tempting is if it truly does free up 20 million under the cap to go after a better young player than martin this summer. It doesn't.

The CBA doesn't work that way. We will in no way, shape, or form have 20 million dollars to offer this summer, regardless.

[Steve Weinman]

And Yes, I think Allen is better than Martin "Just because I say so"

Then don't expect people to be chomping at the bit to engage in any real substantive discourse with you.

-sw

[Brickowski]

So what?  Ray is 10 years older, and I can assure you that a year or two from now, Kevin Martin will be better than Ray.

[cdif911]

And Yes, I think Allen is better than Martin "Just because I say so"

Then don't expect people to be chomping at the bit to engage in any real substantive discourse with you.

-sw

because I said so arguments are the best ever tho...especially when two go at it - is so, is not, yah huh, nah uh ....love it

[BirdNerd]

I don't think we can assume Martin cannot fit in our system. 

I like the statistical analysis, but also, do either of you have league pass and have watched Kevin Martin?   

Since the rumors, I have been keeping some tabs on him via league pass.  He absolutely can fit into our system.   He actually gets many of his looks off screens (at least since Tyreek Evans has taken over there) and pull ups/leaners.     The effort isn't there on D, but put him in our system, he'll have to.   

Shoot, Ray had to also.  Think we have to do this as part of another deal.    That said, give me Iggy and his floor game any day of the week over Martin.

[celticinorlando]

i think martin can fit into any system

[Spilling Green Dye]

I've seen Martin play and unlike Ray, Martin can create his own shot when he has the ball in his hands.  He also shoots a great mid-range jumper, which Ray can when he gets enough separation.

Has everyone forgotten that Ray was horrible in almost every playoff game the past two years?  I'm serious, outside of 1 LA (which was a blowout anyway) game and those Chicago OT specials, he was well below his average.  In fact during our championship run he almost cost us the Atlanta & Detroit series'.  And against Orlando last year (which we lost in 7..).. he was bad.  Am I the only one who remembers this?

Martin's injury history is a definite concern though.  I'd still do the trade though.