Author Topic: Speculating on past construction of the Celtics  (Read 3027 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Speculating on past construction of the Celtics
« on: February 05, 2010, 02:57:39 PM »

Offline hilltopchamps

  • Lonnie Walker IV
  • Posts: 56
  • Tommy Points: 14
how about this starting 5:

PG-Chris Paul(Pierce to portland for 2005 pick was out there)
SG-Brandon Roy(2006 draft pick)
SF-Durant(2007 draft pick)
PF-Al Jefferson(2004 draft pick)
C-Perkins(2003 draft pick)
2007 would have been the 1st year this group was together, how many wins would this group have gotten in 2007, 08, 09, where would they be now? would they be challenging cleveland, orlando, atlanta at the top of the conference? salary cap wise, wouldnt this the team you would want to have, and be willing to pay to keep together? while i was all for the ray-kg trades and exhilarated about the championship, cant help but wonder what this team would have done, constructed with an average bench, anybody else's thoughts? obviously there is no way of knowing how those players would have turned out nor would they be available when the C's were drafting for that particular year, but if they were, would u have enjoyed watching that team?

Re: Speculating on past construction of the Celtics
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2010, 04:24:12 PM »

Offline More Banners

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3845
  • Tommy Points: 257
That's a dream world.

What if, instead of BBD and Pruit in the 2007 second round, Danny had taken

Ramon Sessions
Marc Gasol

Don't understand why Danny is heralded as a drafting superstar...

Re: Speculating on past construction of the Celtics
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2010, 05:11:35 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123


  Sadly our sf would have been Green or Yi and not Durant...

Re: Speculating on past construction of the Celtics
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2010, 06:28:18 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
That's a dream world.

What if, instead of BBD and Pruit in the 2007 second round, Danny had taken

Ramon Sessions
Marc Gasol

Don't understand why Danny is heralded as a drafting superstar...

Danny has hit more than he has missed.  I don't think it's fair to criticize somebody for not getting the best possible player, especially in the second round.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: Speculating on past construction of the Celtics
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2010, 06:47:53 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

  • NCE
  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4205
  • Tommy Points: 777
That's a dream world.

What if, instead of BBD and Pruit in the 2007 second round, Danny had taken

Ramon Sessions
Marc Gasol

Don't understand why Danny is heralded as a drafting superstar...

Danny has hit more than he has missed.  I don't think it's fair to criticize somebody for not getting the best possible player, especially in the second round.

True. He's no Perfect Genius, but his batting average is pretty good. Every GM looks bad when it's "GM's picks vs. the field."

Re: Speculating on past construction of the Celtics
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2010, 07:06:07 PM »

Offline PosImpos

  • NCE
  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12383
  • Tommy Points: 903
  • Rondo = Good
We wouldn't have had the same picks if we had taken those players.  Chris Paul would ensure we wouldn't have higher draft picks later, same with Brandon Roy, and so on.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

"I know you all wanna win, but you gotta do it TOGETHER!"
- Doc Rivers

Re: Speculating on past construction of the Celtics
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 07:19:22 PM »

Offline celticsclay

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16186
  • Tommy Points: 1407
We wouldn't have had the same picks if we had taken those players.  Chris Paul would ensure we wouldn't have higher draft picks later, same with Brandon Roy, and so on.

Is logic allowed in dream scenerios?

Re: Speculating on past construction of the Celtics
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 07:35:27 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9931
  • Tommy Points: 777
We wouldn't have had the same picks if we had taken those players.  Chris Paul would ensure we wouldn't have higher draft picks later, same with Brandon Roy, and so on.
Not necessarily, because we are giving up Pierce to get Paul.

Considering the teams with the worst and second worst records got the #4 and #5 picks in the 2007 draft, even if we had a better record after drafting Roy, that does not mean we would have had a lower pick.

A Roy-Paul back court would have a lot of dribbling around by guards. I can't think of a 2 that dribbles the ball around more than Roy.

Re: Speculating on past construction of the Celtics
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 08:52:11 PM »

Offline More Banners

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3845
  • Tommy Points: 257
That's a dream world.

What if, instead of BBD and Pruit in the 2007 second round, Danny had taken

Ramon Sessions
Marc Gasol

Don't understand why Danny is heralded as a drafting superstar...

Danny has hit more than he has missed.  I don't think it's fair to criticize somebody for not getting the best possible player, especially in the second round.

No disagreement that Danny has made some good picks.  Al Jefferson was a pretty bold pick, especially since he was coming out of high school.  I'll give Danny quite a lot of credit for that one.  And there were some other picks that turned out to be nice players, as there should be.

I've read several folks here defend Danny as though he was the Draft Messiah or something, which simply does not bear any objective scrutiny.  There is what the psychologists call a "self-serving bias" that inevitably creeps into the discussion, where his good picks (Big Al, etc.) are highlighted as indications of his superior ability, and his equally numerous misses are attributed to factors beyond his control (low pick, 2nd rounders, etc.).  It could be that the franchise marketing at the time emphasized the upside of the picks, and we remember/focus on that?

I have NEVER said he was a crap drafter, but that he was average.  Still, some folks couldn't handle the idea that he was average, and attacked my position in the manner I just described.  I don't take it personally.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 09:19:51 PM by More Banners »

Re: Speculating on past construction of the Celtics
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2010, 09:45:04 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
That's a dream world.

What if, instead of BBD and Pruit in the 2007 second round, Danny had taken

Ramon Sessions
Marc Gasol

Don't understand why Danny is heralded as a drafting superstar...

Danny has hit more than he has missed.  I don't think it's fair to criticize somebody for not getting the best possible player, especially in the second round.

No disagreement that Danny has made some good picks.  Al Jefferson was a pretty bold pick, especially since he was coming out of high school.  I'll give Danny quite a lot of credit for that one.  And there were some other picks that turned out to be nice players, as there should be.

I've read several folks here defend Danny as though he was the Draft Messiah or something, which simply does not bear any objective scrutiny.  There is what the psychologists call a "self-serving bias" that inevitably creeps into the discussion, where his good picks (Big Al, etc.) are highlighted as indications of his superior ability, and his equally numerous misses are attributed to factors beyond his control (low pick, 2nd rounders, etc.).  It could be that the franchise marketing at the time emphasized the upside of the picks, and we remember/focus on that?

I have NEVER said he was a crap drafter, but that he was average.  Still, some folks couldn't handle the idea that he was average, and attacked my position in the manner I just described.  I don't take it personally.

I'm not sure about average.  Does the average GM land two players of Big Al's and Rondo's ability outside the lottery?  What about a starting center at the end of the first round?  Do they land contributors like Powe, BBD, and Gomes in the second round?

Who has Danny missed on?  Banks, Gerald, and Giddens, and only Banks can really be considered a bust relative to draft position.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: Speculating on past construction of the Celtics
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 09:57:00 PM »

Offline celts34pats55

  • The Green Kornet
  • Posts: 97
  • Tommy Points: 26
That's a dream world.

What if, instead of BBD and Pruit in the 2007 second round, Danny had taken

Ramon Sessions
Marc Gasol

Don't understand why Danny is heralded as a drafting superstar...

Danny has hit more than he has missed.  I don't think it's fair to criticize somebody for not getting the best possible player, especially in the second round.

No disagreement that Danny has made some good picks.  Al Jefferson was a pretty bold pick, especially since he was coming out of high school.  I'll give Danny quite a lot of credit for that one.  And there were some other picks that turned out to be nice players, as there should be.



Big Al was not at all a stretch at that point. The guy was like a 40-20 guy in high school. I know the knock on him coming out was that he played vs bad competition and that he was a bit pudgy, but he was very highly regarded coming out, and he was my personal binky in the draft. I was ecstatic when Robert "not so" Swift was taken ahead of us, and Ainge couldn't be tempted by him.

Re: Speculating on past construction of the Celtics
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2010, 10:39:44 PM »

Offline More Banners

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3845
  • Tommy Points: 257
Okay...let me try to defend myself...hold your fire at least long enough for me to type...

What I consider "average" is taking players at the level of the draft that seems appropriate for their ability to be NBA players.

First round:  We would probably all agree that top 10 picks should probably end up being star players, or at least starters, last 10 first round picks are probably role players and/or projects, and the middle ten could go either way, but should probably make it in the league, barring injury, in some capacity (including end of bench roster fodder).

The picks (not including those still on rookie contracts; it's too early to call those either way):

Top 10:  none (made good trade use of #5 for Ray)
Middle 10:

Marcus Banks, 11, Bust.  Worst Celt #11 since Moiso, likely out of the league as soon as the contract McHale gave him is up.

Al Jefferson, 15, good pick.  Not a franchise guy/all star yet, but a good player, and potential future all star.  Seems appropriate for draft position.

Gerald Green, 18, out of the league.  Total bust.

(so far, looks below average to me)

Last 10 1st round(likely role players and projects):

Delonte West, 24, good role/bench player.

Tony Allen, 25, good role/bench player.

Rajon Rondo, 21, good value here, even if he's still working on that 15 foot wide open jumper (sarcasm there-but there is some truth to it, and it's why he fell to 21.  He probably looks better/developed better because of such good shooters elsewhere on the floor)

Perkins, 27, good role player.  Keep in mind that the Perk we see today is much different than the fat 6'10" kid that Danny drafted. It took him years to develop into a competent role player, and more to start on a contender.

(I think others probably give Danny more credit than I do for the role players here.  Perk, TA, and Delonte were appropriate for draft position.  Rondo was slightly above, somewhere between superstar and role player, which is what we expect for the 11-20th pick, but he was not far out of there at 21)

(Depending how much credit one gives for Rondo, and takes away for Banks/G.Green, we improve Danny's grade to either slightly below average to average)

Second Round:

I would hope that players picked would make it in the league, somewhere, even in a towel-waving role.  Solid rotation players are a plus, out of the league altogether after the rookie deal is a minus.

Brandon Hunter, 56, out of the league.
Justin Reed, 40, out of the league.
Ryan Gomes, 50, good role player/rotation player.
Oriene Green, 53, out of the league.
Leon Powe, 49, good role player/rotation player.
Gabe Pruitt, 32, out of the league.
Glen Davis, 35, role player/rotation player.

(4 out of 7 picks are out of the league.  2 fell in the draft because of health/injury issues, one of which Danny didn't pick up the option on due to his being injured.  Still, this is above average, but not outstanding, at this level of the draft, moving Danny's overall grade to...average.)

Intangibles and observations: 

I think it's a bit odd that Danny's mid-first round picks seem about as likely to stick in the league as his second rounders.

I credit Danny for taking a chance on injured college players.  People need a chance.  Those were, by far, his best second round picks, but they fall short of being "steals".

His late first round selections seem better than they are/were because of Perk's development from fat kid to solid starting player.

I think the above makes it pretty clear that he has as many misses as hits, and that the picks are usually appropriate for draft position, with the one exception of Rondo, who should have gone in the middle instead of the last third of the draft (11-20 instead of 21).


Whoa...just looked at this.  I'll start another thread with it...



Re: Speculating on past construction of the Celtics
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2010, 10:59:20 PM »

Offline sk7326

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 453
  • Tommy Points: 24

at the time - Gerald Green vs Danny Granger was the speculation - Pacers solved it for them.  Gerald Green was a high high ceiling prospect ... it is possible for those guys to be busts, but at that draft position for a building team, you are better off drafting ceiling.  You take some homerun swings on talent and some swings to get contributors.  Danny has had a knack for doing both. 

The Roy for Telfair deal was bad - that was the big mistake he made.  Really his second round picks have largely provided value - Justin Reed is not in the league, but he was good enough to be part of the pile we sent for KG. 

Kendrick Perkins was drafted 28th (or 27th or whatever) on ceiling.  If you are expecting both ceiling and probablity where the Celtics have drafted, your expectations are unrealistic. 

Second round draft picks in the first half of the round are mean to provide value - frankly guys at the end of the second round are screwed - they are better off not being drafted.  That you get rotation players out of the second round if you are not locating foreigners (whose aribtrage is basically gone now) is a bonus.