CHI sun times rumor: Ray Allen for Kirk Hinrich

[Chris]

1) This trade affect Ainge budget for the next years
2) Ray Allen at lower price (say about 6-8 mln) is more attractive than Hinrich (two years left on his contract at 9 milions) if Danny want to do a sign and trade
3) how can hinrich improve allen's game? Do you really believe Hinrich is a better player? And, fo course, if you don't notice that: he is having the worst season of his career
4) If you trade Allen you kill the Big Three era, are you ready for this? I'm not. Unless we can get a player like Iggy or, at least, Kevin Martin.

Well, I can certainly understand this point of view, and go back and forth from similar thinking myself.  But I think there are two things you are overlooking.

First, this is not Ray for Hinrich.  This is Ray for Hinrich AND another piece or two.  I have said, I would only do it, if it were Hinrich, Salmons, and Thomas. 

I agree that Hinrich is not as good as Allen.  I also do not think Hinrich should be a full time SG.  However, since Allen is not a superstar anymore, if you can get three players who would immediately fit into our top 8 (which those three would), then I think you have to look at it.

I also think this team is clearly missing athleticism, and the defensive ability they had two years ago.  This trade brings some of that back.

And finally, this is not the 2008 Celtics.  That team is gone.  This is a different team.  They are not the shutdown defenders, and killer offensive players they used to be.  Rondo and Perkins have become much more prominent.  They can't keep this team together, or fail to make changes, even within the team, because of what happened 2 years ago.  They need to continue to evolve, and improve, or else they will just fade away. 

I am not sure if this is the deal that will do it (and in reality, both teams may turn this down), but this is the type of deal that Danny needs to be looking for, because lets face it, he is probably not going to get a younger player who is as good, or better than Allen.  What he is looking for is a package that makes the team better than they are right now.

Would you do a Scal, TA and Giddens + Walker for Hinrich deal, then? Keeping Ray, and only adding Hinrich (and not Salmons) to our bench for this year and maybe putting him in the starting lineup next season while re-signing Ray to a "cheap" contract and use him as a 6th man?

I really like Hinrich and he would be a great fit for us (he would fix a lot of our weaknesses) but only if we get him without losing such big talent and intangibles as Ray.

Would I?  Sure.  Would Wyc and Danny?  I doubt it.  I think taking on Hinrich's contract only makes sense if you are given some sort of sweetener.  

Also, I don't think Hinrich starts over Ray...well, ever.  Ray is the better player, and Hinrich is not a SG, he is a PG, who can fill in at SG.  

Honestly, at this point, I am not sure Hinrich is a huge upgrade over Daniels or even Tony Allen (the way he is playing right now), so to make it worthwhile to take on his contract, Thomas has got to be in the deal.  Thomas may not be what people hoped he would be, but he brings something this team is missing.  That makes the deal worth it.

[Fan from VT]

1) This trade affect Ainge budget for the next years
2) Ray Allen at lower price (say about 6-8 mln) is more attractive than Hinrich (two years left on his contract at 9 milions) if Danny want to do a sign and trade
3) how can hinrich improve allen's game? Do you really believe Hinrich is a better player? And, fo course, if you don't notice that: he is having the worst season of his career
4) If you trade Allen you kill the Big Three era, are you ready for this? I'm not. Unless we can get a player like Iggy or, at least, Kevin Martin.

Well, I can certainly understand this point of view, and go back and forth from similar thinking myself.  But I think there are two things you are overlooking.

First, this is not Ray for Hinrich.  This is Ray for Hinrich AND another piece or two.  I have said, I would only do it, if it were Hinrich, Salmons, and Thomas. 

I agree that Hinrich is not as good as Allen.  I also do not think Hinrich should be a full time SG.  However, since Allen is not a superstar anymore, if you can get three players who would immediately fit into our top 8 (which those three would), then I think you have to look at it.

I also think this team is clearly missing athleticism, and the defensive ability they had two years ago.  This trade brings some of that back.

And finally, this is not the 2008 Celtics.  That team is gone.  This is a different team.  They are not the shutdown defenders, and killer offensive players they used to be.  Rondo and Perkins have become much more prominent.  They can't keep this team together, or fail to make changes, even within the team, because of what happened 2 years ago.  They need to continue to evolve, and improve, or else they will just fade away. 

I am not sure if this is the deal that will do it (and in reality, both teams may turn this down), but this is the type of deal that Danny needs to be looking for, because lets face it, he is probably not going to get a younger player who is as good, or better than Allen.  What he is looking for is a package that makes the team better than they are right now.

Would you do a Scal, TA and Giddens + Walker for Hinrich deal, then? Keeping Ray, and only adding Hinrich (and not Salmons) to our bench for this year and maybe putting him in the starting lineup next season while re-signing Ray to a "cheap" contract and use him as a 6th man?

I really like Hinrich and he would be a great fit for us (he would fix a lot of our weaknesses) but only if we get him without losing such big talent and intangibles as Ray.

Chicago already turned down a similar deal, they aren't going to give just hinrich away in a salary dump.

...yet. They are smartly trying to milk him for the best they can get; maybe they'll get a pick or a useful guy on a controlled rookie scale.

However, if i were betting, I would bet that on the night of the deadline they take expirings for hinrich.

Why?

They have no chance this year, and if they deal hinrich for terrible, but expiring, players, they can say:

"Hey, any two players, come take a max (or near-max) deal to play IN CHICAGO, WITH EACH OTHER, and with DENG, NOAH, and ROSE!!!!"

I think they give up Hinrich in a heartbeat when push comes to shove, just to keep the possibility of a Rose/Deng/Bron/Bosh/Noah team alive.

But of course they're going to play hardball right now, try to squeak a pick out of it.

[Fan from VT]

1) This trade affect Ainge budget for the next years
2) Ray Allen at lower price (say about 6-8 mln) is more attractive than Hinrich (two years left on his contract at 9 milions) if Danny want to do a sign and trade
3) how can hinrich improve allen's game? Do you really believe Hinrich is a better player? And, fo course, if you don't notice that: he is having the worst season of his career
4) If you trade Allen you kill the Big Three era, are you ready for this? I'm not. Unless we can get a player like Iggy or, at least, Kevin Martin.

Well, I can certainly understand this point of view, and go back and forth from similar thinking myself.  But I think there are two things you are overlooking.

First, this is not Ray for Hinrich.  This is Ray for Hinrich AND another piece or two.  I have said, I would only do it, if it were Hinrich, Salmons, and Thomas. 

I agree that Hinrich is not as good as Allen.  I also do not think Hinrich should be a full time SG.  However, since Allen is not a superstar anymore, if you can get three players who would immediately fit into our top 8 (which those three would), then I think you have to look at it.

I also think this team is clearly missing athleticism, and the defensive ability they had two years ago.  This trade brings some of that back.

And finally, this is not the 2008 Celtics.  That team is gone.  This is a different team.  They are not the shutdown defenders, and killer offensive players they used to be.  Rondo and Perkins have become much more prominent.  They can't keep this team together, or fail to make changes, even within the team, because of what happened 2 years ago.  They need to continue to evolve, and improve, or else they will just fade away. 

I am not sure if this is the deal that will do it (and in reality, both teams may turn this down), but this is the type of deal that Danny needs to be looking for, because lets face it, he is probably not going to get a younger player who is as good, or better than Allen.  What he is looking for is a package that makes the team better than they are right now.

Would you do a Scal, TA and Giddens + Walker for Hinrich deal, then? Keeping Ray, and only adding Hinrich (and not Salmons) to our bench for this year and maybe putting him in the starting lineup next season while re-signing Ray to a "cheap" contract and use him as a 6th man?

I really like Hinrich and he would be a great fit for us (he would fix a lot of our weaknesses) but only if we get him without losing such big talent and intangibles as Ray.

Would I?  Sure.  Would Wyc and Danny?  I doubt it.  I think taking on Hinrich's contract only makes sense if you are given some sort of sweetener.  

Also, I don't think Hinrich starts over Ray...well, ever.  Ray is the better player, and Hinrich is not a SG, he is a PG, who can fill in at SG.  

Honestly, at this point, I am not sure Hinrich is a huge upgrade over Daniels or even Tony Allen (the way he is playing right now), so to make it worthwhile to take on his contract, Thomas has got to be in the deal.  Thomas may not be what people hoped he would be, but he brings something this team is missing.  That makes the deal worth it.

For what it's worth, Hollinger, in his chat tuesday, listed the Celts as one of only 3 teams that would "unconditionally" take on more money. Cleveland and Dallas were the other two.

[Chris]

1) This trade affect Ainge budget for the next years
2) Ray Allen at lower price (say about 6-8 mln) is more attractive than Hinrich (two years left on his contract at 9 milions) if Danny want to do a sign and trade
3) how can hinrich improve allen's game? Do you really believe Hinrich is a better player? And, fo course, if you don't notice that: he is having the worst season of his career
4) If you trade Allen you kill the Big Three era, are you ready for this? I'm not. Unless we can get a player like Iggy or, at least, Kevin Martin.

Well, I can certainly understand this point of view, and go back and forth from similar thinking myself.  But I think there are two things you are overlooking.

First, this is not Ray for Hinrich.  This is Ray for Hinrich AND another piece or two.  I have said, I would only do it, if it were Hinrich, Salmons, and Thomas. 

I agree that Hinrich is not as good as Allen.  I also do not think Hinrich should be a full time SG.  However, since Allen is not a superstar anymore, if you can get three players who would immediately fit into our top 8 (which those three would), then I think you have to look at it.

I also think this team is clearly missing athleticism, and the defensive ability they had two years ago.  This trade brings some of that back.

And finally, this is not the 2008 Celtics.  That team is gone.  This is a different team.  They are not the shutdown defenders, and killer offensive players they used to be.  Rondo and Perkins have become much more prominent.  They can't keep this team together, or fail to make changes, even within the team, because of what happened 2 years ago.  They need to continue to evolve, and improve, or else they will just fade away. 

I am not sure if this is the deal that will do it (and in reality, both teams may turn this down), but this is the type of deal that Danny needs to be looking for, because lets face it, he is probably not going to get a younger player who is as good, or better than Allen.  What he is looking for is a package that makes the team better than they are right now.

I respect your thought, this is a very interesting perspective, but we need to make clear some points:

- Is this trade considering to give up one or more picks? I hope not
- Are you really think we are going to be a contender with Hinrich, Thomas and Salmons instead of Allen? I'm not
- Are you sure when you say: "lets face it, he is probably not going to get a younger player who is as good, or better than Allen?". Maybe you're right, but everyday i read trade rumors about Iguodala and Kevin Martin and i think Allen could be useful to many teams out there.

As for the contender part...well, I think we have just as much of a chance to contend with those guys as we do with Allen.  And I think they could improve our chances if things work out.  But really, it all comes down to KG.

As for the other trade options, call me a cynic, but I just do not see guys like Iggy, Martin, or Ellis being traded unless someone takes a contract that the C's want no part of (like Brand or Maggette), or, if its only with a medium contract (Nocioni, Dalembert, or Radmanovic), they are going to want a sweetener, that we don't have (well, unless Danny wants to give up a draft pick in 3-4 years, when it could be a valuable lottery pick).

Yes, there are a lot of rumors out there, but I simply don't buy them.  Teams do not give up young stars in a pure salary dump.  There are too many expiring contracts out there, and those players are too productive.

[Chris]

1) This trade affect Ainge budget for the next years
2) Ray Allen at lower price (say about 6-8 mln) is more attractive than Hinrich (two years left on his contract at 9 milions) if Danny want to do a sign and trade
3) how can hinrich improve allen's game? Do you really believe Hinrich is a better player? And, fo course, if you don't notice that: he is having the worst season of his career
4) If you trade Allen you kill the Big Three era, are you ready for this? I'm not. Unless we can get a player like Iggy or, at least, Kevin Martin.

Well, I can certainly understand this point of view, and go back and forth from similar thinking myself.  But I think there are two things you are overlooking.

First, this is not Ray for Hinrich.  This is Ray for Hinrich AND another piece or two.  I have said, I would only do it, if it were Hinrich, Salmons, and Thomas. 

I agree that Hinrich is not as good as Allen.  I also do not think Hinrich should be a full time SG.  However, since Allen is not a superstar anymore, if you can get three players who would immediately fit into our top 8 (which those three would), then I think you have to look at it.

I also think this team is clearly missing athleticism, and the defensive ability they had two years ago.  This trade brings some of that back.

And finally, this is not the 2008 Celtics.  That team is gone.  This is a different team.  They are not the shutdown defenders, and killer offensive players they used to be.  Rondo and Perkins have become much more prominent.  They can't keep this team together, or fail to make changes, even within the team, because of what happened 2 years ago.  They need to continue to evolve, and improve, or else they will just fade away. 

I am not sure if this is the deal that will do it (and in reality, both teams may turn this down), but this is the type of deal that Danny needs to be looking for, because lets face it, he is probably not going to get a younger player who is as good, or better than Allen.  What he is looking for is a package that makes the team better than they are right now.

Would you do a Scal, TA and Giddens + Walker for Hinrich deal, then? Keeping Ray, and only adding Hinrich (and not Salmons) to our bench for this year and maybe putting him in the starting lineup next season while re-signing Ray to a "cheap" contract and use him as a 6th man?

I really like Hinrich and he would be a great fit for us (he would fix a lot of our weaknesses) but only if we get him without losing such big talent and intangibles as Ray.

Would I?  Sure.  Would Wyc and Danny?  I doubt it.  I think taking on Hinrich's contract only makes sense if you are given some sort of sweetener.  

Also, I don't think Hinrich starts over Ray...well, ever.  Ray is the better player, and Hinrich is not a SG, he is a PG, who can fill in at SG.  

Honestly, at this point, I am not sure Hinrich is a huge upgrade over Daniels or even Tony Allen (the way he is playing right now), so to make it worthwhile to take on his contract, Thomas has got to be in the deal.  Thomas may not be what people hoped he would be, but he brings something this team is missing.  That makes the deal worth it.

For what it's worth, Hollinger, in his chat tuesday, listed the Celts as one of only 3 teams that would "unconditionally" take on more money. Cleveland and Dallas were the other two.

That's a very vague statement.  Does it mean they will take on money for this season?  Does it mean they will take on money for quality players in the future?  Or does it mean, they will take on terrible contracts that will cost them millions of dollars in luxury tax over the next 2-5 years for less than impact players?

[BballTim]

1) This trade affect Ainge budget for the next years
2) Ray Allen at lower price (say about 6-8 mln) is more attractive than Hinrich (two years left on his contract at 9 milions) if Danny want to do a sign and trade
3) how can hinrich improve allen's game? Do you really believe Hinrich is a better player? And, fo course, if you don't notice that: he is having the worst season of his career
4) If you trade Allen you kill the Big Three era, are you ready for this? I'm not. Unless we can get a player like Iggy or, at least, Kevin Martin.

Well, I can certainly understand this point of view, and go back and forth from similar thinking myself.  But I think there are two things you are overlooking.

First, this is not Ray for Hinrich.  This is Ray for Hinrich AND another piece or two.  I have said, I would only do it, if it were Hinrich, Salmons, and Thomas. 

I agree that Hinrich is not as good as Allen.  I also do not think Hinrich should be a full time SG.  However, since Allen is not a superstar anymore, if you can get three players who would immediately fit into our top 8 (which those three would), then I think you have to look at it.

I also think this team is clearly missing athleticism, and the defensive ability they had two years ago.  This trade brings some of that back.

And finally, this is not the 2008 Celtics.  That team is gone.  This is a different team.  They are not the shutdown defenders, and killer offensive players they used to be.  Rondo and Perkins have become much more prominent.  They can't keep this team together, or fail to make changes, even within the team, because of what happened 2 years ago.  They need to continue to evolve, and improve, or else they will just fade away. 

I am not sure if this is the deal that will do it (and in reality, both teams may turn this down), but this is the type of deal that Danny needs to be looking for, because lets face it, he is probably not going to get a younger player who is as good, or better than Allen.  What he is looking for is a package that makes the team better than they are right now.

Would you do a Scal, TA and Giddens + Walker for Hinrich deal, then? Keeping Ray, and only adding Hinrich (and not Salmons) to our bench for this year and maybe putting him in the starting lineup next season while re-signing Ray to a "cheap" contract and use him as a 6th man?

I really like Hinrich and he would be a great fit for us (he would fix a lot of our weaknesses) but only if we get him without losing such big talent and intangibles as Ray.

Would I?  Sure.  Would Wyc and Danny?  I doubt it.  I think taking on Hinrich's contract only makes sense if you are given some sort of sweetener.  

Also, I don't think Hinrich starts over Ray...well, ever.  Ray is the better player, and Hinrich is not a SG, he is a PG, who can fill in at SG.  

Honestly, at this point, I am not sure Hinrich is a huge upgrade over Daniels or even Tony Allen (the way he is playing right now), so to make it worthwhile to take on his contract, Thomas has got to be in the deal.  Thomas may not be what people hoped he would be, but he brings something this team is missing.  That makes the deal worth it.

For what it's worth, Hollinger, in his chat tuesday, listed the Celts as one of only 3 teams that would "unconditionally" take on more money. Cleveland and Dallas were the other two.

That's a very vague statement.  Does it mean they will take on money for this season?  Does it mean they will take on money for quality players in the future?  Or does it mean, they will take on terrible contracts that will cost them millions of dollars in luxury tax over the next 2-5 years for less than impact players?

  I heard something similar on the radio, but I wasn't paying much attention. It had something to do with the position the team would be in in terms of the new CBA.

[mzepol]

I was reading through the RealGM Bulls board on this topic and some Bulls fans are even willing to do a Hinrich+Deng for Ray+filler trade. The question is, are the Bulls' management willing to look in that direction too?

[PosImpos]

I was reading through the RealGM Bulls board on this topic and some Bulls fans are even willing to do a Hinrich+Deng for Ray+filler trade. The question is, are the Bulls' management willing to look in that direction too?

That's a trade I'd do.  I'm not sure how we'd fit Deng in, but we'd find a way.

[GranTur]

The only way the Bulls trade Deng is if they feel confident in signing someone like Joe Johnson, Wade, Bosh, or Lebron.

Otherwise they are just destroying one of the three players they are gonna build around (Rose, Noah).

I don’t know how I feel about it. Deng at the 3 and Pierce at the 2 would give us some great size and we all know Deng can rebound and score.

[get_banners]

if deng is in there, you absolutely do the deal. i'm not opposed to hinrich plus thomas, either. you lose some offense, but gain a lot on defense and rebounding.

[JIMTONIK]

Ray for Hinrich is simply ridicolous, come on!
Kirk is not a starter, expecially in a contender team.
Are you kidding me?
I hope this is not going to happen.
I could accept a deal involving people like Iggy or kevin Martin, but not with a backup PG who's playing badly by months and months.

[xmuscularghandix]

If Ray leaves and plays well for Chicago the rest of the season he will not be signing at a reduced price.

He will definitely be playing at a reduced price. There's not a single team that's gonna sign him for 19 million dollars. I'd say he's looking at 12 MAAX (to a crap team) probably more like 8 or 9 with a contender.

[Cman]

If Ray leaves and plays well for Chicago the rest of the season he will not be signing at a reduced price.

He will definitely be playing at a reduced price. There's not a single team that's gonna sign him for 19 million dollars. I'd say he's looking at 12 MAAX (to a crap team) probably more like 8 or 9 with a contender.

I think the poster you quote intended to mean that the contract figures you suggest for next year (12 Max, or 8-9 more likely) are no less than what Ray would command if he instead stays with the Cs.  I agree (that is, whether Ray plays out the year with the Cs or is traded, he will pretty much command the same amount of money in the offseason).

[Fafnir]

If Ray leaves and plays well for Chicago the rest of the season he will not be signing at a reduced price.

He will definitely be playing at a reduced price. There's not a single team that's gonna sign him for 19 million dollars. I'd say he's looking at 12 MAAX (to a crap team) probably more like 8 or 9 with a contender.

He's not going to get 8 or 9 from a contender, what contenders will have cap room?

[GranTur]

Any team with enough cap room to sign Ray Allen has no reason to sign him (can't build around him, declining starting skills).

Any contender will not have cap room, making the MLE the only money available.

The Celtics can sign Ray for a probable super cheap $6 or $7 million dollars for 2-3 years.