Still would rather trade spare parts

[jdub1660]

So here goes as I'm sure i will get creamed for this, but the Ray Allen you're talking about isn't the one on this team. The Ray Allen on this team is old. His shooting precentage especially 3 pointers, is way down even from last year. He's not a good defender, passer or rebounder. He turns the ball over quite a lot when he tries to handle the ball. I'm sorry, but at some point, if they play long enough, everyone loses a step, an in the NBA that's deadly. What you are trading here is an expiring contract and that's about it.
Ray seems like a great guy, good team mate,etc. But I think if you look objectivly at his game, you have to see that he is not even close to the player he was. I'm also pretty sure if you are honest with yourself, you could name a lot, not just a few, but a lot of younger players who are more consistant shooters and can add better defense, ball handling, and passing to this team.
Sorry, but that really how i see it. Ray had a great carrer but it pretty close to over.

I understand this as well.  Ray is far and away on the downside of his career and isn't what he used to be.  Not that close.  But I stand by my original comment.  He is much more effective that people give him credit for.  He can still shoot better than a lot of players, is smart, and creates his shot better than many. 
I understand that there are players out there better than Ray but what are the odds that we get one of those players?  And if anyone thinks we can just plug in an athletic guy (e.g., TA) to take Ray's place, they are mistaken.  No, if we do trade Ray, we need an established two or three in return (and nothing less).  We can't even think about starting TA (or someone similar), regardless of what else comes back in the deal.

I'm not sure what you mean by shoots better than a lot of players. Yeah he shoots better than say Perkins or Howard, but not than most 2 guards. I guess he's smart or at least he reads a lot of books. As for creating his own shot, I believe that is one of the things he does worst. His best shot is coming off a pick and getting the ball delivered to him.
Listen, I don't want to sit here a rip on Ray. He's reallt been one of my all time favorite players, I just think it's okay to look at him objectively. And no I don;t think Tony Allen is the answer, but if say Philly was interested in moving Izzy for Ray, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't see why you think it would be so difficult to plug someone who is athletic into that spot would be a problem. Prehaps they could guard someone.

 I like Iggy but I don't see him as a solution either. He too can't create his own shot, and doesn't play well when he doesn't get alot of shots - look at his current production with Iverson back.  I still think trading Ray to Chicago is our best answer as long as we get Hinrich AND Tyrus Thomas.

[JSD]

I think everyone would rather trade spare parts than ray allen.

The problem is i question what any of the other 29 teams would give us a player who could make an impact for our spare parts. Our spare parts are arguably not as good as ANY of the other contending teams spare parts, trade value wise.

Well, one could say that our spare parts (consisting of primarily expiring contracts) have never been more valuable. Isn't the cap room the primary goal for most of these teams looking to deal quality players?

removing ray though, who's our expirings? TA and scal?

Pretty sure (though could easily be wrong) that CLEV, LA and even the magic can dig up better players who's expirings add to that kind of money.

According to Hoopshype, Tony, Eddie, Scal, Giddens, Daniels and Sheldon all have expiring deals totaling around $11 Million.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm

[Jack_Frost]

Except Iguodala, i'm with you droopdog

[droopdog7]

In addition to scal and TA, giddens and Eddie are also expiring. And I am pretty sure that neither cle or la have those kind of expiring contracts.

[crownsy]

CLev can match that in one player, Z, who is arguably better than anyone on that list for a teams bench (I don't think it's the case, but it's very arguable.)

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/cleveland.htm

LA cant do it though.

ATL can do it if they are willing to move joe johnson (which they really should, him and smith are both guys who need the ball in thier hands. can't play them both

Orl can't quite match it, but they have spare parts for 8ish million

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/orlando.htm


My point is, i just don't think teams are as eager to deal for our spare parts as some trade proposals assume them to be.

[JSD]

CLev can match that in one player, Z, who is arguably better than anyone on that list for a teams bench (I don't think it's the case, but it's very arguable.)

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/cleveland.htm

LA cant do it though.

ATL can do it if they are willing to move joe johnson (which they really should, him and smith are both guys who need the ball in thier hands. can't play them both

Orl can't quite match it, but they have spare parts for 8ish million

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/orlando.htm


My point is, i just don't think teams are as eager to deal for our spare parts as some trade proposals assume them to be.

You make a good point, I just think it's situational. Team's are still trying for that 2010 cap room. Perhaps Baby and a 1st rounder would have to be included to push a deal involving our spare parts over the top.

[fanofgreen]

I'm convinced we can get Keyon Dooling for the simple swap of:

Scal and his expiring for Keyon, who has two years left on his deal.

Its not like the Nets, are have any untouchable players, they are clearly using this season as an tanker, and wants expiring contract.

The fact that Scal has played in NJ before, may be more enticing fot NJ mgmt to allow this trade to happen, it might mean a few more tickets sold.

I really think we could get Dooling for Scalabrine.

[droopdog7]

It's not that we are theonly team with expiring contracts. It's that our contracts are expendable. The problem with trading Z is that it would hurt cle too much. Plus, they've seen how effective the lineup of Z and Shaquille is against LA so they would never do it.

[crownsy]

It's not that we are theonly team with expiring contracts. It's that our contracts are expendable. The problem with trading Z is that it would hurt cle too much. Plus, they've seen how effective the lineup of Z and Shaquille is against LA so they would never do it.

Have you watched CLev play lately?

Z is not a huge part of their team now that shaq is there. They have been rumored to be trying to move him for months. In fact, one of the most solid rumors has him outbound for antwain Jameison.

One game where it worked against LA is not going to change the fact that it is almost imposable for them to play Z and shaq on the floor at the same time efficiently. It affectively turns any long rebound into a 5 on 3 break for the other team.

The simple fact is that we vastly overestimate other teams desire to trade for our spare parts. If teams were really chomping at the bit to do it, as trade threads have claimed all season, they would have made a move for an impact player by now with the expiring s.

I have no doubt we could trade out expirings for something, but not for the pie in the sky scenario's that persistently pop up.

[JSD]

It's not that we are theonly team with expiring contracts. It's that our contracts are expendable. The problem with trading Z is that it would hurt cle too much. Plus, they've seen how effective the lineup of Z and Shaquille is against LA so they would never do it.

Have you watched CLev play lately?

Z is not a huge part of their team now that shaq is there. They have been rumored to be trying to move him for months.

One game where it worked against LA is not going to change the fact that it is almost imposable for them to play Z and shaq on the floor at the same time efficiently. It affectively turns any long rebound into a 5 on 3 break for the other team.

Yeah, Cleveland has been shopping Big Z for months now. There is however possibility of a buy-out Cleveland resign if he does go.

[celts55]

So here goes as I'm sure i will get creamed for this, but the Ray Allen you're talking about isn't the one on this team. The Ray Allen on this team is old. His shooting precentage especially 3 pointers, is way down even from last year. He's not a good defender, passer or rebounder. He turns the ball over quite a lot when he tries to handle the ball. I'm sorry, but at some point, if they play long enough, everyone loses a step, an in the NBA that's deadly. What you are trading here is an expiring contract and that's about it.
Ray seems like a great guy, good team mate,etc. But I think if you look objectivly at his game, you have to see that he is not even close to the player he was. I'm also pretty sure if you are honest with yourself, you could name a lot, not just a few, but a lot of younger players who are more consistant shooters and can add better defense, ball handling, and passing to this team.
Sorry, but that really how i see it. Ray had a great carrer but it pretty close to over.

I understand this as well.  Ray is far and away on the downside of his career and isn't what he used to be.  Not that close.  But I stand by my original comment.  He is much more effective that people give him credit for.  He can still shoot better than a lot of players, is smart, and creates his shot better than many. 
I understand that there are players out there better than Ray but what are the odds that we get one of those players?  And if anyone thinks we can just plug in an athletic guy (e.g., TA) to take Ray's place, they are mistaken.  No, if we do trade Ray, we need an established two or three in return (and nothing less).  We can't even think about starting TA (or someone similar), regardless of what else comes back in the deal.

I'm not sure what you mean by shoots better than a lot of players. Yeah he shoots better than say Perkins or Howard, but not than most 2 guards. I guess he's smart or at least he reads a lot of books. As for creating his own shot, I believe that is one of the things he does worst. His best shot is coming off a pick and getting the ball delivered to him.
Listen, I don't want to sit here a rip on Ray. He's reallt been one of my all time favorite players, I just think it's okay to look at him objectively. And no I don;t think Tony Allen is the answer, but if say Philly was interested in moving Izzy for Ray, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't see why you think it would be so difficult to plug someone who is athletic into that spot would be a problem. Prehaps they could guard someone.

 I like Iggy but I don't see him as a solution either. He too can't create his own shot, and doesn't play well when he doesn't get alot of shots - look at his current production with Iverson back.  I still think trading Ray to Chicago is our best answer as long as we get Hinrich AND Tyrus Thomas.

That would work fine also. I was just using Iquodala as an example. I don't mind the Butler-Miller idea I've heard either. My point is that I don't believe it's that hard to upgrade the 2010 version of Ray Allen.

[crownsy]

So here goes as I'm sure i will get creamed for this, but the Ray Allen you're talking about isn't the one on this team. The Ray Allen on this team is old. His shooting precentage especially 3 pointers, is way down even from last year. He's not a good defender, passer or rebounder. He turns the ball over quite a lot when he tries to handle the ball. I'm sorry, but at some point, if they play long enough, everyone loses a step, an in the NBA that's deadly. What you are trading here is an expiring contract and that's about it.
Ray seems like a great guy, good team mate,etc. But I think if you look objectivly at his game, you have to see that he is not even close to the player he was. I'm also pretty sure if you are honest with yourself, you could name a lot, not just a few, but a lot of younger players who are more consistant shooters and can add better defense, ball handling, and passing to this team.
Sorry, but that really how i see it. Ray had a great carrer but it pretty close to over.

I understand this as well.  Ray is far and away on the downside of his career and isn't what he used to be.  Not that close.  But I stand by my original comment.  He is much more effective that people give him credit for.  He can still shoot better than a lot of players, is smart, and creates his shot better than many. 
I understand that there are players out there better than Ray but what are the odds that we get one of those players?  And if anyone thinks we can just plug in an athletic guy (e.g., TA) to take Ray's place, they are mistaken.  No, if we do trade Ray, we need an established two or three in return (and nothing less).  We can't even think about starting TA (or someone similar), regardless of what else comes back in the deal.

I'm not sure what you mean by shoots better than a lot of players. Yeah he shoots better than say Perkins or Howard, but not than most 2 guards. I guess he's smart or at least he reads a lot of books. As for creating his own shot, I believe that is one of the things he does worst. His best shot is coming off a pick and getting the ball delivered to him.
Listen, I don't want to sit here a rip on Ray. He's reallt been one of my all time favorite players, I just think it's okay to look at him objectively. And no I don;t think Tony Allen is the answer, but if say Philly was interested in moving Izzy for Ray, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't see why you think it would be so difficult to plug someone who is athletic into that spot would be a problem. Prehaps they could guard someone.

 I like Iggy but I don't see him as a solution either. He too can't create his own shot, and doesn't play well when he doesn't get alot of shots - look at his current production with Iverson back.  I still think trading Ray to Chicago is our best answer as long as we get Hinrich AND Tyrus Thomas.

That would work fine also. I was just using Iquodala as an example. I don't mind the Butler-Miller idea I've heard either. My point is that I don't believe it's that hard to upgrade the 2010 version of Ray Allen.

I think the thing that's tough to replace is the ability to accept your one of 4 options.

Most of the guys mentioned in these rumors that are realistic are used to 18-20+ shots a night. will they be ok getting 15 or less some nights?

[celts55]

So here goes as I'm sure i will get creamed for this, but the Ray Allen you're talking about isn't the one on this team. The Ray Allen on this team is old. His shooting precentage especially 3 pointers, is way down even from last year. He's not a good defender, passer or rebounder. He turns the ball over quite a lot when he tries to handle the ball. I'm sorry, but at some point, if they play long enough, everyone loses a step, an in the NBA that's deadly. What you are trading here is an expiring contract and that's about it.
Ray seems like a great guy, good team mate,etc. But I think if you look objectivly at his game, you have to see that he is not even close to the player he was. I'm also pretty sure if you are honest with yourself, you could name a lot, not just a few, but a lot of younger players who are more consistant shooters and can add better defense, ball handling, and passing to this team.
Sorry, but that really how i see it. Ray had a great carrer but it pretty close to over.

I understand this as well.  Ray is far and away on the downside of his career and isn't what he used to be.  Not that close.  But I stand by my original comment.  He is much more effective that people give him credit for.  He can still shoot better than a lot of players, is smart, and creates his shot better than many. 
I understand that there are players out there better than Ray but what are the odds that we get one of those players?  And if anyone thinks we can just plug in an athletic guy (e.g., TA) to take Ray's place, they are mistaken.  No, if we do trade Ray, we need an established two or three in return (and nothing less).  We can't even think about starting TA (or someone similar), regardless of what else comes back in the deal.

I'm not sure what you mean by shoots better than a lot of players. Yeah he shoots better than say Perkins or Howard, but not than most 2 guards. I guess he's smart or at least he reads a lot of books. As for creating his own shot, I believe that is one of the things he does worst. His best shot is coming off a pick and getting the ball delivered to him.
Listen, I don't want to sit here a rip on Ray. He's reallt been one of my all time favorite players, I just think it's okay to look at him objectively. And no I don;t think Tony Allen is the answer, but if say Philly was interested in moving Izzy for Ray, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't see why you think it would be so difficult to plug someone who is athletic into that spot would be a problem. Prehaps they could guard someone.

 I like Iggy but I don't see him as a solution either. He too can't create his own shot, and doesn't play well when he doesn't get alot of shots - look at his current production with Iverson back.  I still think trading Ray to Chicago is our best answer as long as we get Hinrich AND Tyrus Thomas.

That would work fine also. I was just using Iquodala as an example. I don't mind the Butler-Miller idea I've heard either. My point is that I don't believe it's that hard to upgrade the 2010 version of Ray Allen.

I think the thing that's tough to replace is the ability to accept your one of 4 options.

Most of the guys mentioned in these rumors that are realistic are used to 18-20+ shots a night. will they be ok getting 15 or less some nights?

Well so far Ray, Paul, KG and Wallace all have been okay with both shooting and scoring less. Winning has a funny way of affecting people. The people mentioned above take a lot of shots for crappy teams. I can't speck to these few, but I think you might be surprised by how many players would be happy to score less and win.