KG Passes Bird on Scoring List. Is He More Clutch than LB..Better Than Duncan?

[PierceMVP08]

I don't think KG/Bird comparisons should be discussed, but something that irks me is that Duncan is given the nod in any KG/Duncan debates. I seriously wonder how KG would've fared alongside the Admiral or Ginobili and Parker. It's wayyyyy closer than most would have you believe.

KG in his prime really carried some Twolve teams with minimal talent around him. the year he had marbury and spree, he went to the WCF.

that being said, i would probably take duncan over kg, but it is close.

You might be able to make this argument better than the bird one, however, as Bill Simmons always states, Duncan always came up huge in big games.  KG never really did that.  Granted he didn't play in as many big games, especially in his early years, and didn't get a chance to develop that.  Still a lot of that has to be natural and it seems KG doesn't really have that.  So I give the nod to Duncan as well.

2004(his only real team)
Game Clincher against Denver: 25, 8 dimes, 7 boards
Game 7 against Sacto: 32 and 21 and his team scored 83  
Game 6 Loss to LA: 22 and 17

He averaged 27 and 16 in the playoffs the year before. It's a case of something that has been spewed time after time and is regurgitated as fact when it can't be further from the truth.

One playoff year does not put him on the level of Duncan.  Think about all the years and games Duncan came up huge.  I don't even have time to look that up.  KG played in big games before and after that year and didn't come up big.  To say it can't be further from the truth is pretty funny.

I actually think the "Duncan always comes up big" is a pretty big myth.  Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili were the guys that came up huge in the clutch quite often.  Yes, Duncan has had his moments... plenty of them.  But a TON of the clutch buckets the Spurs needed were provided by those two guards.

Very much in the same manner that Cassell and Sprewell came up with big buckets in 2004.  People like to talk about cassell and sprewell as proof that he never had good teammates because they were the best, but they were good players in their own right.  Let's not forget that.

[RAcker]

Tooo lazy to look, but how many more years has KG played than Larry played, 4 or 5? KG a great player and future hall of famer, but no comparison to Bird in my opinion.

That's both a point in favor of Bird and against him.

I disagree.  Bird played a full college career before the NBA and was one of the greatest college players of all time before becoming one of the greatest NBA players of all time.  

KG has played all of his NBA seasons right out of HS.  Big difference and not a negative or positive for either one.  

For the record, I love both.

[tbs]

I think the hoopla had to do with Bryant becoming the leading scorer in Lakers history, not that he passed a Hall of Famer. f KG had become the greatest scorer in Celtics history, it might have been more newsworthy. KG is going to keep passing Hall of Famers if he stays healthy.

[PierceMVP08]

I think the hoopla had to do with Bryant becoming the leading scorer in Lakers history, not that he passed a Hall of Famer. f KG had become the greatest scorer in Celtics history, it might have been more newsworthy. KG is going to keep passing Hall of Famers if he stays healthy.

I agree... I think thats the most important issue in regards to the original topic.  KG is a great player, and that's the real issue for not receiving much attention for passing Bird.

[moiso]

Duncan is more comparable to Bird than KG is to Bird.  Duncan and Bird were the main men on multiple championship teams.  You can compare KG's numbers in big games with the other two, and you can even compare fourth quarter numbers.  But I've seen Bird and Duncan do a hell of a lot more in the closing minutes of playoff games than KG throughout their careers.

[Lucky17]

I find it especially a propos that Kobe gained national media attention for setting his mark on a night when his team lost (an afterthought), and KG quietly reached his milestone on a night when his efforts in large part secured a tough win for his team.

[Fafnir]

Duncan is more comparable to Bird than KG is to Bird.  Duncan and Bird were the main men on multiple championship teams.  You can compare KG's numbers in big games with the other two, and you can even compare fourth quarter numbers.  But I've seen Bird and Duncan do a hell of a lot more in the closing minutes of playoff games than KG throughout their careers.

Confirmation Bias, you've seen more big moments because both had more opportunities.

[moiso]

Duncan is more comparable to Bird than KG is to Bird.  Duncan and Bird were the main men on multiple championship teams.  You can compare KG's numbers in big games with the other two, and you can even compare fourth quarter numbers.  But I've seen Bird and Duncan do a hell of a lot more in the closing minutes of playoff games than KG throughout their careers.

Confirmation Bias, you've seen more big moments because both had more opportunities.

I've also seen KG afraid to shoot at the end of games for the first 2/3 of his career.

[Fafnir]

Duncan is more comparable to Bird than KG is to Bird.  Duncan and Bird were the main men on multiple championship teams.  You can compare KG's numbers in big games with the other two, and you can even compare fourth quarter numbers.  But I've seen Bird and Duncan do a hell of a lot more in the closing minutes of playoff games than KG throughout their careers.

Confirmation Bias, you've seen more big moments because both had more opportunities.

I've also seen KG afraid to shoot at the end of games for the first 2/3 of his career.

Prove it.

Anecdotal claims of players being "afraid" don't hold much water with me.

[PierceMVP08]

Duncan is more comparable to Bird than KG is to Bird.  Duncan and Bird were the main men on multiple championship teams.  You can compare KG's numbers in big games with the other two, and you can even compare fourth quarter numbers.  But I've seen Bird and Duncan do a hell of a lot more in the closing minutes of playoff games than KG throughout their careers.

Confirmation Bias, you've seen more big moments because both had more opportunities.

I've also seen KG afraid to shoot at the end of games for the first 2/3 of his career.

Prove it.

Anecdotal claims of players being "afraid" don't hold much water with me.

Clearly there is no way to prove other than what you view with your own two eyes.  Although there must be a reason why a much larger portion of fans have seen him afraid to shoot in big moments than have seen him come up big.  You can say that Bird and Duncan have had more opporunities but so has KG.  He has had the opportunity to beat teams in the playoffs and hasn't.  had he, he would've had more chances.  To come up clutch you have to put yourself in that position.

[moiso]

Duncan is more comparable to Bird than KG is to Bird.  Duncan and Bird were the main men on multiple championship teams.  You can compare KG's numbers in big games with the other two, and you can even compare fourth quarter numbers.  But I've seen Bird and Duncan do a hell of a lot more in the closing minutes of playoff games than KG throughout their careers.

Confirmation Bias, you've seen more big moments because both had more opportunities.

I've also seen KG afraid to shoot at the end of games for the first 2/3 of his career.

Prove it.

Anecdotal claims of players being "afraid" don't hold much water with me.

Clearly there is no way to prove other than what you view with your own two eyes.  Although there must be a reason why a much larger portion of fans have seen him afraid to shoot in big moments than have seen him come up big.  You can say that Bird and Duncan have had more opporunities but so has KG.  He has had the opportunity to beat teams in the playoffs and hasn't.  had he, he would've had more chances.  To come up clutch you have to put yourself in that position.

And I'm not just talking playoffs.  I've seen it in the closing minutes of regular season games.  Several times I've seen him catch the ball from around 15 or 16 feet facing the basket with an open shot, then pivot so his back is to the basket, looking for someone, anyone to pass the ball to.  He has outgrown this stuff, but this is how he was for a significant portion of his career.

[jdpapa3]

And then people go proving my point in the Duncan/KG debates...falling into the same traps.

I mean look at these terrible teams KG had.

KG gets help for the first time in his career and he wins it that year. So, he is batting 100% in winning championships with talent around him. Do you really think KG would've failed that year with David Robinson/Elliott and co. vs. the Knicks?

I wanted to discuss it objectively and not have people go with the old and tired "Duncan does it in the big games" mumbo jumbo.

[jdub1660]

On the all time points list. 

KG... 21,792 on 49.7% career shooting
Bird... 21,791 on 49.6% career shooting

KG is a great player, but he's still not in Larry's class, in my mind.

Larry: 24.3 ppg, 10.0 reb, 6.3 ast, .514 eFG%

KG: 20.0 ppg, 11.0 reb, 4.1 ast, .502 eFG%

Of course, the impact of each player goes beyond their stats.  Both are elite Hall of Famers, but Larry was simply better.

Larry wasn't the best defensive player in the league for most of his career though.

I think its a closer than most people think.

TP. KG is arguably the best PF to play the game. Imagine this, KG gets passed up b/c he's just a HS star, and gets picked up by the Celtics with the 14th pick...And the Celtics would have then had a Big 3 between the old and "new" KG-Pierce-Antoine
Obviously it would have taken a few years, but his talent wouldn't have been wasted in Minny. Not to mention he did take them to the WCF with Spree and Cassell. Spree was injured a good part, and half the role players were too(Wally,Hudson)

In all, it's hard to compare the two, since one was a killer on the offensive end, and the other was a defensive beast

[PierceMVP08]

And then people go proving my point in the Duncan/KG debates...falling into the same traps.

I mean look at these terrible teams KG had.

KG gets help for the first time in his career and he wins it that year. So, he is batting 100% in winning championships with talent around him. Do you really think KG would've failed that year with David Robinson/Elliott and co. vs. the Knicks?

I wanted to discuss it objectively and not have people go with the old and tired "Duncan does it in the big games" mumbo jumbo.

Just because you continue to say that those are tired arguments doesn't make it anymore true.  There is a reason why you are one of a handful of people who hold the opinion about KG that you do.  No doubt he is a great player, and all time player, but a clutch player he is not.  He is much better suited as a second banana with other guys taking the offensive pressure off of him.

You also seem to forget that Pierce was just as big a part of the 08 title as KG, if not more important.  There are those, Bill Simmons included, that think Pierce was the best player on that 08 team.  Maybe not the best over their career, but for that year Pierce was.  So you can't really make the argument that when KG finally got players around him, he won.  It's not exactly the case.

[drza44]

Duncan is more comparable to Bird than KG is to Bird.  Duncan and Bird were the main men on multiple championship teams.  You can compare KG's numbers in big games with the other two, and you can even compare fourth quarter numbers.  But I've seen Bird and Duncan do a hell of a lot more in the closing minutes of playoff games than KG throughout their careers.

Confirmation Bias, you've seen more big moments because both had more opportunities.

I've also seen KG afraid to shoot at the end of games for the first 2/3 of his career.

Prove it.

Anecdotal claims of players being "afraid" don't hold much water with me.

Clearly there is no way to prove other than what you view with your own two eyes.  Although there must be a reason why a much larger portion of fans have seen him afraid to shoot in big moments than have seen him come up big. 

From what I can tell, it's an urban legend that nobody really wants to let go of.  I use as one piece of evidence the 2008 championship run, where I spent a lot of time on message boards (both general and Celtics-based) and got to see this up close and personal.  No matter how you may feel about Garnett's career, there is no argument against him coming up huge, repeatedly, in the big games/late games of the championship run of 2008.  I mean, I almost hope somebody challenges me on it again so we can really go through every game if you like and I can show you just how often he was a rock in those situations.

But the problem is, even then, when Garnett came up big it was ignored and when he came up short it was magnified beyond anything I've ever seen.  It's like people decided that KG isn't clutch, and then proceeded to ignore anything that didn't confirm that view...even if that meant ignoring almost everything that happened for an entire postseason. 

The peak of ridiculousness came on the Sons of Sam Horn board, where they had a running thread called "Is Kevin Garnett a Phony" where they proceeded to rake him over the coals for the entirety of the run.  The climax came in Game 5 of the Pistons series, where one poster adamantly insisted that Garnett shrunk late in that game despite KG leading all scorers with 33 points, leading all Celtics with 10 4th quarter points, and hit the 2 game-clinching free throws with 2 seconds left in regulation.  That was the point that clinched it for me: for some, no matter what Garnett does or the bodies of evidence to the contrary, KG will just always be considered unclutch. 

But in the face of all this I think it's even more clear that uninformed public opinion doesn't make something true, even if a lot of other un-informed people believe it.