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Garnett Non Boxscore Effect
« on: January 25, 2010, 11:24:57 PM »

Offline drza44

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I engaged in a big debate the other day with a couple of Celts bloggers that insisted that it was a travesty for KG to make the All Star team this year.  They went so far as to call him a role player on this team, and a part-time role player at that, since he had missed 11 games and only averages about 15 and 7.  I tried to get my point across by describing the ways that KG changes the game for his teammates, making it easier for everyone and I used some advanced stats and team stats to try to make my point.

Didn't really work.

Well today, I wish I had those guys' e-mail address because the 4th quarter of this game could have been exhibit A for what I was talking about.  KG had 3 definite, tangible effects and 1 big intangible effect that completely shifted the last 5 minutes of the game.  And none of them show up in the box scores, which tell me only that KG had 17 and 2 in 31 minutes.

Effect 1: Garnett absolutely froze up Craig Smith, who was torching the team.  I was watching the Celtics broadcast, and Tommy spent the whole 4th quarter lamenting how Craig Smith was keeping the Clippers in the game.  At one point he said something like, "The Celtics might want to pay attention to this Smith guy, because right about now he thinks he could climb the Empire State Building from the outside".  Baby, Perk, and I believe Sheed all took their turns getting roasted.  This is what Smith's contributions in the box score look like from the 9 minute mark to the 4 minute mark:

8:41   Craig Smith makes 5-foot two point shot (Rasual Butler assists)
7:56   Craig Smith makes free throw 1 of 2   
7:56   Craig Smith makes free throw 2 of 2
7:03   Craig Smith makes free throw 1 of 2
7:03   Craig Smith misses free throw 2 of 2
6:37   Craig Smith misses free throw 1 of 2
6:37   Craig Smith makes free throw 2 of 2
6:11   Craig Smith makes layup (Rasual Butler assists)
5:43   Craig Smith makes driving layup
4:50   Craig Smith makes free throw 1 of 2
4:50   Craig Smith misses free throw 2 of 2

Smith outscored the entire Celtics team 11 - 9 over a four minute period in the 4th.  Then, with about four minutes left in the game, KG got switched onto him.  This is what the rest of the game looked like for the two of them:

3:55 Kevin Garnett makes 15-foot jumper (post over Smith)
3:19 Craig Smith misses two point shot (hounded by KG)
1:45 Craig Smith misses layup (hounded by KG)
1:04 Kevin Garnett makes layup (Rajon Rondo assists)
0:34 Craig Smith personal foul (Kevin Garnett draws the foul)
0:34 Steve Novak enters the game for Craig Smith

Effect 2: The big man scoring threat late. Again, watching the Celtics broadcast, Tommy practically stood up and cheered every time they through the ball in to KG on the post with under 5 minutes left.  Not just because he was making the shot, but because he COULD make the shot and he COULD make the free throw and he COULD make the pass.  Pierce and Allen have well-earned clutch scoring reputations, but over the last few weeks the Celtics' crunchtime offense was extremely predictable since everyone knew either Pierce or Allen were likely to iso or shoot a long ball.  Rondo and Perk were shaky late because of their free throw issues, and Sheed seems to primarily want to spot up for the trey, which haven't been exactly reliable late in games.  With Garnett in there the entire way the crunch offense runs is different, because if he's involved the other team HAS to respect him.  Suddenly, Pierces isos are 1-on-1 mismatches as the opponent can't help off of Garnett.  Suddenly, Rondo is getting wide open face-up looks off the dribble from 13 feet as his man has to stick to KG.  Or, if the team doesn't respect KG enough, you see him score 7 points in the last 5 minutes to make them pay.

Effect 3: The Mantis of Baron Davis.
I can't even find it in the play-by-play, but trust me on this, late in the game with the Cs still only up by about 6 points or so, the Clippers had a run-out fast break.  Baron Davis had the ball and he took it to the cup, with someone (Ricky Davis?  Rasual Butler?) spotted up at the 3-point line.  KG was the only one back, and he funneled Davis all the way to the rim and swallowed him.  Davis tried to kick it back out to the shooter, but KG 1-man trapped him on the baseline on the dead run and knocked the ball into the stands.  This put the clamps on a potential momentum swinging dunk or long-ball that could have gotten the Clips back into it.  Plus, this led to...

Intangible effect: After mantis-ing Davis, KG went over to the sideline and Hulk Hogan-ed the crowd into a frenzy.  I wasn't even there, but even on TV you could tell the place just went nuts.  He didn't quite spaz out like he did in that Rockets game his first year in green, but I think everyone there knew at that point that the Celtics just weren't losing this game.

And again, none of these things show up in the box score.  If you are an adherent of advanced stats, KG is actually among the team leaders (if not leading outright) in almost all of them, and many of those stats actually come from interpreting the box scores.  But in addition to whatever he might contribute to the boxes, KG is one of the few players that can take over a game by doing things that aren't even measured.  They're tangible, and if you watch close they are obvious, but if you didn't watch the game and all you saw was that he had 17 and 2...you'd have completely missed it.

Re: Garnett Non Boxscore Effect
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 04:44:11 AM »

Offline Drucci

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TP for this excellent thread!

I thought the same thing watching the game, KG's return made a big, big difference because we were on the verge of imploding again after a late Clippers run. Yet KG prevented that and made big plays on both ends to secure the win (the way he forced Baron to miss the easy fastbreak was huge and impressive). His shutdown of Smith was also huge because like you said - and Tommy kept repeating it - the guy was unstoppable and single-handedly ketp the Clips in the game.

Also, I really like how Doc manages KG's minutes since his injury. He only plays 30 minutes per game but, first and foremost, these minutes are good minutes in the sense that KG gets a long rest and then he comes back for 6 or 7 minutes, which allows him to be really effective since he has a lot of energy left.

Re: Garnett Non Boxscore Effect
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 09:33:45 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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TP for drza44!

There was a thread a few days ago comparing KG to Gasol as far as each player's importance to their respective teams. In that thread, I mentioned KG as having "It"....that effect on a game that does not always show up in a box score.

Drza44 thanks for helping me quantify that "It" word, lol....

KG's effect on a Box Score is phenomenal.

Great Post.

Re: Garnett Non Boxscore Effect
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 09:41:23 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Very nice post.  You should post this as a FanPost on the front page, as well.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: Garnett Non Boxscore Effect
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 10:36:00 AM »

Offline drza44

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Very nice post.  You should post this as a FanPost on the front page, as well.

Thanks, everyone, for the compliments and (more importantly) the TPs.  And yeah, I put it in the FanPost section as well since it seems like a lot of people only read one or the other.

Re: Garnett Non Boxscore Effect
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2010, 12:06:26 PM »

Offline Txusberg

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I agree 100% with all you said, Drza44. Nice post and TP for you. And the best of KG is still to come. Go Celtics!!

Re: Garnett Non Boxscore Effect
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2010, 01:02:12 PM »

Offline SamuelAdams

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Great post.  KG looked so good his first night back.  I keep watching how he is responding to his knee.  The first game he looked fantastic. He had great side to side mobility and real push off his knee when he wanted it. There was seemed to be no side effects of the knee injury.

He looked strong last night but weaker than the previous game.  :(  You can see him limping slightly in the 4th.  He couldn't rotate quickly off the weak knee. Not 100%  :(

Re: Garnett Non Boxscore Effect
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2010, 02:44:59 PM »

Offline drza44

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Great post.  KG looked so good his first night back.  I keep watching how he is responding to his knee.  The first game he looked fantastic. He had great side to side mobility and real push off his knee when he wanted it. There was seemed to be no side effects of the knee injury.

He looked strong last night but weaker than the previous game.  :(  You can see him limping slightly in the 4th.  He couldn't rotate quickly off the weak knee. Not 100%  :(

Honestly, I had the exact opposite impression (though the same ultimate conclusion).  In game 1 he really seemed to be favoring that leg to me, especially late in the game when he couldn't get any lift to get a rebound and Juwan Howard kept knocking them away from him.  Then, on one play late in the 4th quarter he actually got up and hopped on one foot with his knee in the air, then limped down the court.  I was terrified after watching that one.

This last game, he seemed to me to be moving a lot better with much better reaction time on defense.  I don't think he did anything as impressive as his late-game defense on Smith and Baron in the Portland game.  He also looked a lot more fluid on offense, but that's more about timing than health anyway.

Ultimately, I agree that KG isn't fully up to speed yet.  But I am a lot more confident after game 2 than I was after game 1...

Re: Garnett Non Boxscore Effect
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2010, 02:49:30 PM »

Online Redz

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Great post.  KG looked so good his first night back.  I keep watching how he is responding to his knee.  The first game he looked fantastic. He had great side to side mobility and real push off his knee when he wanted it. There was seemed to be no side effects of the knee injury.

He looked strong last night but weaker than the previous game.  :(  You can see him limping slightly in the 4th.  He couldn't rotate quickly off the weak knee. Not 100%  :(

Honestly, I had the exact opposite impression (though the same ultimate conclusion).  In game 1 he really seemed to be favoring that leg to me, especially late in the game when he couldn't get any lift to get a rebound and Juwan Howard kept knocking them away from him.  Then, on one play late in the 4th quarter he actually got up and hopped on one foot with his knee in the air, then limped down the court.  I was terrified after watching that one.

This last game, he seemed to me to be moving a lot better with much better reaction time on defense.  I don't think he did anything as impressive as his late-game defense on Smith and Baron in the Portland game.  He also looked a lot more fluid on offense, but that's more about timing than health anyway.

Ultimately, I agree that KG isn't fully up to speed yet.  But I am a lot more confident after game 2 than I was after game 1...

I can't remember which game it was, but the only time I saw KG really babying his knee was on a play where he was running full force down the court then had to stop short.  You could clearly see him taking weight off the bad knee...Hopefully his good knee doesn't get too trashed while his bad knee recovers.
Yup

Re: Garnett Non Boxscore Effect
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2010, 10:19:56 PM »

Offline mzepol

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Excellent post drza44. TP for you!

Re: Garnett Non Boxscore Effect
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2010, 05:58:09 PM »

Offline jdpapa3

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To help out your argument even more, there is a great article describing the statistical difference when KG is not playing. We gave up 10 more points per 100 possessions, which is just absurd. When he is playing we are 1st in the league, and when he is not we are 19th.

http://www.hoopdata.com/recent.aspx?aid=120

Quote
To see this effect, consider that the Celtics opponents score about 10 points more per 100 possessions with Garnett in a power suit than when he's wearing the green garb. That's right, in the eleven games this season that Garnett has missed, the Celtics have allowed an average of 107.3 points per 100 possessions and with him, opponents only put up 97.1. Not convinced? Take a gander at his on court/off court numbers over at 82games.com and you'll see a similar story. The guy prevents points

Re: Garnett Non Boxscore Effect
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2010, 06:05:30 PM »

Offline Birdbrain

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I engaged in a big debate the other day with a couple of Celts bloggers that insisted that it was a travesty for KG to make the All Star team this year.  They went so far as to call him a role player on this team, and a part-time role player at that, since he had missed 11 games and only averages about 15 and 7.  I tried to get my point across by describing the ways that KG changes the game for his teammates, making it easier for everyone and I used some advanced stats and team stats to try to make my point.

Didn't really work.

Well today, I wish I had those guys' e-mail address because the 4th quarter of this game could have been exhibit A for what I was talking about.  KG had 3 definite, tangible effects and 1 big intangible effect that completely shifted the last 5 minutes of the game.  And none of them show up in the box scores, which tell me only that KG had 17 and 2 in 31 minutes.

Effect 1: Garnett absolutely froze up Craig Smith, who was torching the team.  I was watching the Celtics broadcast, and Tommy spent the whole 4th quarter lamenting how Craig Smith was keeping the Clippers in the game.  At one point he said something like, "The Celtics might want to pay attention to this Smith guy, because right about now he thinks he could climb the Empire State Building from the outside".  Baby, Perk, and I believe Sheed all took their turns getting roasted.  This is what Smith's contributions in the box score look like from the 9 minute mark to the 4 minute mark:

8:41   Craig Smith makes 5-foot two point shot (Rasual Butler assists)
7:56   Craig Smith makes free throw 1 of 2   
7:56   Craig Smith makes free throw 2 of 2
7:03   Craig Smith makes free throw 1 of 2
7:03   Craig Smith misses free throw 2 of 2
6:37   Craig Smith misses free throw 1 of 2
6:37   Craig Smith makes free throw 2 of 2
6:11   Craig Smith makes layup (Rasual Butler assists)
5:43   Craig Smith makes driving layup
4:50   Craig Smith makes free throw 1 of 2
4:50   Craig Smith misses free throw 2 of 2

Smith outscored the entire Celtics team 11 - 9 over a four minute period in the 4th.  Then, with about four minutes left in the game, KG got switched onto him.  This is what the rest of the game looked like for the two of them:

3:55 Kevin Garnett makes 15-foot jumper (post over Smith)
3:19 Craig Smith misses two point shot (hounded by KG)
1:45 Craig Smith misses layup (hounded by KG)
1:04 Kevin Garnett makes layup (Rajon Rondo assists)
0:34 Craig Smith personal foul (Kevin Garnett draws the foul)
0:34 Steve Novak enters the game for Craig Smith

Effect 2: The big man scoring threat late. Again, watching the Celtics broadcast, Tommy practically stood up and cheered every time they through the ball in to KG on the post with under 5 minutes left.  Not just because he was making the shot, but because he COULD make the shot and he COULD make the free throw and he COULD make the pass.  Pierce and Allen have well-earned clutch scoring reputations, but over the last few weeks the Celtics' crunchtime offense was extremely predictable since everyone knew either Pierce or Allen were likely to iso or shoot a long ball.  Rondo and Perk were shaky late because of their free throw issues, and Sheed seems to primarily want to spot up for the trey, which haven't been exactly reliable late in games.  With Garnett in there the entire way the crunch offense runs is different, because if he's involved the other team HAS to respect him.  Suddenly, Pierces isos are 1-on-1 mismatches as the opponent can't help off of Garnett.  Suddenly, Rondo is getting wide open face-up looks off the dribble from 13 feet as his man has to stick to KG.  Or, if the team doesn't respect KG enough, you see him score 7 points in the last 5 minutes to make them pay.

Effect 3: The Mantis of Baron Davis.
I can't even find it in the play-by-play, but trust me on this, late in the game with the Cs still only up by about 6 points or so, the Clippers had a run-out fast break.  Baron Davis had the ball and he took it to the cup, with someone (Ricky Davis?  Rasual Butler?) spotted up at the 3-point line.  KG was the only one back, and he funneled Davis all the way to the rim and swallowed him.  Davis tried to kick it back out to the shooter, but KG 1-man trapped him on the baseline on the dead run and knocked the ball into the stands.  This put the clamps on a potential momentum swinging dunk or long-ball that could have gotten the Clips back into it.  Plus, this led to...

Intangible effect: After mantis-ing Davis, KG went over to the sideline and Hulk Hogan-ed the crowd into a frenzy.  I wasn't even there, but even on TV you could tell the place just went nuts.  He didn't quite spaz out like he did in that Rockets game his first year in green, but I think everyone there knew at that point that the Celtics just weren't losing this game.

And again, none of these things show up in the box score.  If you are an adherent of advanced stats, KG is actually among the team leaders (if not leading outright) in almost all of them, and many of those stats actually come from interpreting the box scores.  But in addition to whatever he might contribute to the boxes, KG is one of the few players that can take over a game by doing things that aren't even measured.  They're tangible, and if you watch close they are obvious, but if you didn't watch the game and all you saw was that he had 17 and 2...you'd have completely missed it.


Fantastic, I was actually thinking about this same thing the other day and you encapsulated my opinion perfectly.

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